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Can anyone identify the manufacturer of this frame?

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Can anyone identify the manufacturer of this frame?

Old 06-24-20, 05:22 AM
  #1  
T.McD.
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Can anyone identify the manufacturer of this frame?

I've had this bike since the late 80s. My brother found it at a garage sale. Original paint color was a darker copper. It had some interesting non-matching parts; Campagnolo derailers (rear is a Rally), Campagnolo shift levers and wheel skewers, 3ttt bar stem, Diacomp breaks, Phil Wood hubs, etc. A bit of a 'Frankenbike'. The bike has been sitting in a garage for the last 20 years; in rough shape. I'm trying to bring it back to life. The frame serial number is 56800 and is stamped on the top of the seat tube in a top to bottom direction. There is also a number, 56, stamped on the bottom bracket. I'm new to the forum so I will need a few more posted comments to post pictures. Based on the information provided, any ideas of who made it? There are no braze-ons at all; the cable guides near the bottom bracket are clamp-on Campy. Thanks in advance for the help.







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Old 06-24-20, 05:32 AM
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Until you can post pics, one thing people will likely want to know is the seat post diameter. And you can use a post or two to describe more details like any brand name on the dropouts, general observations about geometry (racy or touring) and anything else you think worth mentioning.
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Old 06-24-20, 05:38 AM
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Thanks AeroGut. I'm clearly a rookie here and will try to learn quickly. There are no names stamped anywhere. Regarding the other suggestions, I will take measurements and post them.
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Old 06-24-20, 05:57 AM
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Another bit is the threading on the bottom bracket. English? Italian? French? Swiss? You'll have your 10 posts quickly.
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Old 06-24-20, 06:53 AM
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Your bicycle was probably bought as a frame only right after the bike boom that started right after 1970. Before that time a "10 speed" bike was pretty rare in the US. The lack of braze-ons and your own time line suggest that time period too. It was common then to assemble a frame bought separately into a bicycle with whatever components the owner thought best. Your Phil Wood hubs are a good indication that original owner bought parts separately since they were not OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) parts production companies used in specing their bicycles.

The 56 stamped on the bottom bracket shell is probably the seat tube size in centimeters. Most Italian frames measured center of bottom bracket to center of seat lug but there are exceptions like Masi. This most likely rules out an English frame because back in the 70's they measured center of BB to top of seat lug in inches and not centimeters. I'm guessing that if you look at the marking on your bottom bracket cups they will say 36 X 24 which = Italian threads.
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Old 06-25-20, 05:42 AM
  #6  
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Did a little cleanup on the rear dropouts. They are Campagnolo.
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Old 06-25-20, 05:46 AM
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The fork crown lug is a unique design. It is not particularly ornate, but its center point on the outer fork ends in a small horseshoe shape. I have been searching the net for it and have not yet found it.

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Old 06-25-20, 05:47 AM
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The seat post diameter is 25mm inner and 30mm outer.
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Old 06-25-20, 05:52 AM
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The frame appears to be more racing than touring style.
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Old 06-25-20, 06:12 AM
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Have not removed the crank or bottom bracket yet. Still building the tool collection.
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Old 06-26-20, 01:41 PM
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Posted pictures today. Any ideas?
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Old 06-26-20, 04:17 PM
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Frame, from the limited photos up in the rafters (grrr) appears to have fairly relaxed head and seat tube angles, longish chain stays, fairly stubby seat stay caps, long point lugs (suggesting 70s manufacture). Your measurements don't make a lot of sense to me -- the seat post is 30 mm diameter? Unlikely. Chain stays appear to have the "rapid taper" from the BB that's seen on a lot of Raleigh higher-end frames in the 70s; but it's unlikely to be one of those based on the serial number config and placement. For a quality frame from that era, the exterior of the seat post would measure 26.6 or 27.2 mm (need to be exacting -- if you don't have a good caliper, then there's no point talking about this). The fork crown might indeed be an important clue, but people here need better photos, taken outside in good light, to help any more than what you've got so far. The paint job is crap; while it might protect the frame, if you just want to ride it, it's nothing to look at, but the frame appears to have potential as a classic/vintage item, assuming you like the ride -- which will be somewhat different than what was later deemed to be a "racing" bike". That's perfectly all right, no problem with it, and lots of people (especially hereabouts) would prefer it to a more "upright" model. Offhand I'd guess Italian or English, but the bottom bracket threading will be much more conclusive in that direction than anything else. It shouldn't be that difficult to figure out, from markings (engraved lettering or incised lines). Take more photos close-up of the various parts and intersections!
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Old 06-26-20, 06:51 PM
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Thanks Charles. I'm clearly a rookie here but I do enjoy bikes. I will take more pictures in the sun light and post them.
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Old 06-26-20, 06:56 PM
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Welcome aboard T.McD. , hopefully the other learned elders will be happening by your thread. Paging juvela and T-Mar and the others. The info already given is all spot on, the first thing that caught my eye was the Phil hub on front, it looks like a pretty nice frame over all. Relaxed geometry and some indications of quality building. Hope that you get to build this one up and that its your size,

Bill
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Old 06-26-20, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by qcpmsame View Post
Welcome aboard T.McD. , hopefully the other learned elders will be happening by your thread. Paging juvela and T-Mar and the others. The info already given is all spot on, the first thing that caught my eye was the Phil hub on front, it looks like a pretty nice frame over all. Relaxed geometry and some indications of quality building. Hope that you get to build this one up and that its your size,

Bill
A fellow Marine and a fellow believer. I look forward to the discussion. Definitely will attempt the build back. I've stripped most of the parts and have spent time cleaning and polishing the salvageable ones. taking more pictures to post tomorrow. Thinking about repainting it myself. There are a couple of good you tube videos on methods, etc. Hopefully someone can identify it. Won't change the build but will satisfy my curiosity. Take another look at the fork crown lug. I've been searching the net and haven't found another like it.
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Old 06-27-20, 07:54 AM
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I can't recall having seen that profile on fork crowns before. It almost looks like the constructor drilled/filed a longer pointed terminal (which would fit with the long point top and down tube lugs) -- in the age before mass manufacture, people building bikes by hand would often re-profile lugs as a sort of signature. Some earlier constructors even fabricated their own from pressed sheet (but I doubt that's the case here). I would concentrate on figuring out what the bottom bracket and headset threadings are. If the stem has a marking for the diameter, 22.2 mm would be English or Italian, and 22.0 would be French.
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Old 06-27-20, 08:15 AM
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I haven't seen that particular crown design either, but I don't think that crown detail was touched by human hands. There were lots of crowns made in that time frame that we didn't see here in the U.S. The frame looks like a factory frame to me.
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Old 06-27-20, 10:05 AM
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I HAVE seen that forkcrown detail before but cannot dredge up the name from musty old braincells, seems to ring an "Italian" bell but would need to get lucky with a google search. Hopefully MauriceMoss juvela and T-Mar will chime in!
EDIT: I was thinking of this vintage Italian crown, seen on a Peloso but think it was used on others but now seeing this I think the OP's crown is different, might be a "re-worked" example of some other make, but since I did the hunting, here's the kill, FWIW:

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Old 06-27-20, 12:40 PM
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-----

wrt crown -

BOCAMA offered a pattern with this keyhole opening also

its hayday was the 1960's

Andy Bertin & Ron Kitching stocked it as MILREMO brand




if you could measure the blade socket dimensions it might be a clue for the framebuilders...

-----

Last edited by juvela; 06-27-20 at 12:44 PM.
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Old 06-27-20, 02:38 PM
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There you go; although the keyhole variant above looks a bit more elegant than what's on OP's bike, and OP's crown doesn't appear to have any tangs inside the fork blades (though it's hard to tell for sure because of the pictures' lack of quality so far). Anyone know what the hole through the rear web of the rear dropouts is for?
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Old 06-27-20, 09:21 PM
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-----

the small hole in the MILREMO branded drive side dropout is part of a chainholder mechanism - similar in concept to the Campag Portacatena.




[dropout attributed to MAVIC]

-----
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Old 06-27-20, 11:08 PM
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a few more pictures








Thank you for your comments and assistance. You've given me a lot to chew on. Part of the fun of this project is solving the mystery. Based on what you have written, it appears the bike may be from the 60's, Italian or English, and a touring frame. I clearly have some work to do. I will keep searching and post what I find. Thanks again.
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Old 06-27-20, 11:30 PM
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1950s Benotto fork?
Frankenbike

Last edited by T.McD.; 06-28-20 at 06:50 AM.
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Old 06-28-20, 08:24 AM
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I can make out "CAMPAGNOLO" on the rear drive-side dropout, and the fork crown does indeed have tangs on the fork blades; both excellent signs of build quality, along with the Campagnolo Record crank and Phil hubs. Now you need to figure out the headset and bottom bracket threadings, and the correct seat post size (which may tell you something more about the frame's origin); and square away how you're going to refinish it (but build up and ride it first!).
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Old 06-28-20, 08:50 AM
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Eye Gore

Originally Posted by T.McD. View Post
1950s Benotto fork?
Frankenbike
It doesn't look like the Benotto crown to me: missing the extended "pinching fingers" at the aperture yours exhibits.

Typically a "Frankenbike" describes a hodgepodge build of parts. You have a bare as yet uncredited frame, and a nice one at that.

In order to facilitate identification, descriptive photographs are necessary.

High resolution pictures on a sunny day shot in the shade against a neutral background will produce the most useful and information laden results.

As you want to identify a builder, focus on the construction details. The way the stays are finished where they connect to the dropout or seat tube cluster. The thinning of the lugs. Nuances.

There are some very adept detectives here; all they need is better evidence.

(Oh, and your finger(s) appear way too clean in the photos.)

Last edited by machinist42; 06-28-20 at 09:01 AM.
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