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1983 Specialized Expedition Build! - 62cm CTC (63.5cm CTT)

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1983 Specialized Expedition Build! - 62cm CTC (63.5cm CTT)

Old 06-28-20, 08:00 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by jonwvara View Post
I'm sort of surprised that no one else has mentioned this so far, but it's unimaginable to me that you'd consider repainting that bike. The paint is fine. It's not supposed to have immaculate paint! Touring bikes are supposed to show some evidence hard miles. Seriously--don't mess with it. An original bike can always be repainted, but a repainted bike can never be unrepainted.

Okay, rant over.
I'm with you- yeah, there's a few scuffs and what looks like a little bit of rust bubbles... but overall it presents really well. I also don't quite understand the need to move the front brake bosses (thus removing the necessity for paint), it's all in the choice of the brake. As long as this bike isn't as narrow as the 84 Voyageur SP at 50mm (!!!!), using the proper brake will easily allow for 700C wheels. I think the MC-70 brakes are a little archaic, but the M732 or the MT62 brakes are great- and I think they look better than the CR720s. It really seems bass ackward to me to spend a huge amount of money modify the frame and paint for the reason of putting on some $27 brakes.

On the other hand, when I got my 84 Stumpjumper I thought it was in decent shape- as I acquired other bikes, I realized just how beat up it really was.

On the other foot- When I got my 85 Trek 620, I had bumped something into it- and I scuffed the paint- I was actually embarrassed and I had it in my head that I had to repaint to hide that horrifying scuff... I not only can't see the scuff anymore- I remember exactly where it was... but the bike as a whole is beautiful.

FWIW- I LOVE the Sugino AT crankset- I'm using it on my 10 speed Trek 720- I have had at least 2 instances of the chain getting caught between the granny and middle ring. Granted, that's 2 instances in 4 years and never between the big and middle rings- but it's always in my mind now. While you're going back and forth over the AT and triplizing a DA7402, you might also want to consider the FC6206- Cold forged triple, 110/74BCD, pleasantly sculpted with relatively subtle Shimano engraving on the arms.
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Old 06-28-20, 08:49 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by RiddleOfSteel View Post

Paint:

The fork has been modified to have 69-70mm canti post spacing, so Tektros are a go up there. The fork will have to be repainted/coated. Tired paint and decals means either a repaint ($700 all in at a R&E) or a powder coat (Seattle Powder Coat charges $90 for paint stripping + $275 for a stocked color). I don't want to do a home job without a proper paint gun, mask, setup, and hard enamel clear coat. Powder coating at $365 is about $150 more than it was 3 years ago, but still a lot cheaper than paint. I've used SPC before and they do good work. Bump the price for a color match or for going with, say, Ford's Tuxedo Black (metallic), which is the same color as on my dad's Ford Expedition.
Seattle Powder Coat is expensive compared to most everywhere I've used. I can get a frame media blasted for $40 locally. $275 for a stocked color is pretty high. Locally in Portland I use CC Coatings, One color, your choice from the Prismatic or Cardinal catalog will run you $150 including media blasting. If you're talking decals and clear coat, $275 is a good price.
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Old 06-28-20, 09:52 AM
  #28  
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[QUOTE=The Golden Boy;21557713 As long as this bike isn't as narrow as the 84 Voyageur SP at 50mm (!!!!), using the proper brake will easily allow for 700C wheels.
[/QUOTE]

The 50mm spacing can be worked around with the proper brake, but the brake spring stop feature make it very narrow to get a wider tire in and out without deflating, as brake pads won't swing out far enough to allow any inflated tires unless they're fairly narrow. It's one of the things that baffle me about a lot of vintage bikes with cantilever posts. The rears are almost always spaced much further apart, allow good clearance. Spec's for vintage cantilever brakes that I've seen require much wider spacing than what you see on most forks of this era.

As far as I can tell, this is a design flaw, common to most every brand BITD.
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Old 06-28-20, 11:32 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by The Golden Boy View Post
I'm with you- yeah, there's a few scuffs and what looks like a little bit of rust bubbles... but overall it presents really well. I also don't quite understand the need to move the front brake bosses (thus removing the necessity for paint), it's all in the choice of the brake. As long as this bike isn't as narrow as the 84 Voyageur SP at 50mm (!!!!), using the proper brake will easily allow for 700C wheels. I think the MC-70 brakes are a little archaic, but the M732 or the MT62 brakes are great- and I think they look better than the CR720s. It really seems bass ackward to me to spend a huge amount of money modify the frame and paint for the reason of putting on some $27 brakes.

On the other hand, when I got my 84 Stumpjumper I thought it was in decent shape- as I acquired other bikes, I realized just how beat up it really was.

On the other foot- When I got my 85 Trek 620, I had bumped something into it- and I scuffed the paint- I was actually embarrassed and I had it in my head that I had to repaint to hide that horrifying scuff... I not only can't see the scuff anymore- I remember exactly where it was... but the bike as a whole is beautiful.

FWIW- I LOVE the Sugino AT crankset- I'm using it on my 10 speed Trek 720- I have had at least 2 instances of the chain getting caught between the granny and middle ring. Granted, that's 2 instances in 4 years and never between the big and middle rings- but it's always in my mind now. While you're going back and forth over the AT and triplizing a DA7402, you might also want to consider the FC6206- Cold forged triple, 110/74BCD, pleasantly sculpted with relatively subtle Shimano engraving on the arms.
I base my don't-paint-it-yet default position on two bikes of my own that I had repainted. I regret it in both cases. Within a few years, both bikes had developed significant paint dings and scratches (especially my touring bike). Now when I Iook at either one, I tend to think "Damn! If I have to have scraped paint, why can't it be original scraped paint.?"
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Old 06-28-20, 11:38 AM
  #30  
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Ok, everyone, this is what a redone fork looks like. Paint and decals on it are affected, obviously.
@jonwvara , people have mentioned that, and I have spent no small amount of time going back and forth over it. The fork work is complete and there's no going back. The bike deserves, in my mind, to have good paint. We all have differing opinions regarding condition, and I have stated before that the paint presents well in pictures while looking not as good in real life. If this bike was ho-hum or anywhere close in ride quality etc, I would not be going through any of this effort. Only after discovering its virtues did I decide to keep it, have the fork's brake mounts modified, and give it a deserving painting/powder coating.

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Old 06-28-20, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by RiddleOfSteel View Post
Ok, everyone, this is what a redone fork looks like. Paint and decals on it are affected, obviously.
@jonwvara , people have mentioned that, and I have spent no small amount of time going back and forth over it. The fork work is complete and there's no going back. The bike deserves, in my mind, to have good paint. We all have differing opinions regarding condition, and I have stated before that the paint presents well in pictures while looking not as good in real life. If this bike was ho-hum or anywhere close in ride quality etc, I would not be going through any of this effort. Only after discovering its virtues did I decide to keep it, have the fork's brake mounts modified, and give it a deserving painting/powder coating.

Yeah, no going back now! I should clarify that I try hard not to tell others what to do with their own bikes, though I may seem to come close to it at times. My point is that I myself am batting 1.000 on repaint regret--just a data point to consider.

Have you thought about just repainting the fork? A great touring bike deserves to look like it's been on a few tours. But maybe there's an appeal to starting with a freshly-painted bike so you know that all chips and scratches are your own chips and scratches?
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Old 06-28-20, 12:32 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by The Golden Boy View Post
I'm with you- yeah, there's a few scuffs and what looks like a little bit of rust bubbles... but overall it presents really well. I also don't quite understand the need to move the front brake bosses (thus removing the necessity for paint), it's all in the choice of the brake. As long as this bike isn't as narrow as the 84 Voyageur SP at 50mm (!!!!), using the proper brake will easily allow for 700C wheels. I think the MC-70 brakes are a little archaic, but the M732 or the MT62 brakes are great- and I think they look better than the CR720s. It really seems bass ackward to me to spend a huge amount of money modify the frame and paint for the reason of putting on some $27 brakes.

On the other hand, when I got my 84 Stumpjumper I thought it was in decent shape- as I acquired other bikes, I realized just how beat up it really was.

On the other foot- When I got my 85 Trek 620, I had bumped something into it- and I scuffed the paint- I was actually embarrassed and I had it in my head that I had to repaint to hide that horrifying scuff... I not only can't see the scuff anymore- I remember exactly where it was... but the bike as a whole is beautiful.

FWIW- I LOVE the Sugino AT crankset- I'm using it on my 10 speed Trek 720- I have had at least 2 instances of the chain getting caught between the granny and middle ring. Granted, that's 2 instances in 4 years and never between the big and middle rings- but it's always in my mind now. While you're going back and forth over the AT and triplizing a DA7402, you might also want to consider the FC6206- Cold forged triple, 110/74BCD, pleasantly sculpted with relatively subtle Shimano engraving on the arms.
Somehow I never mentioned it aside literally everything else (or at least I can't find it), but the measured front spacing was 55.4mm while the rear spacing was 69.7mm. So yeah, the front is really narrow. There is only 32mm between those front canti bosses, which is also incredibly narrow.

I can understand how you or others could think that it's unwise to spend a good bit of money for "only $27 brakes" but perhaps you or others have not used them before? I put them on my '90 Cannondale ST400 with about as low and shallow a straddle cable height/angle as I could. Living in Seattle proper subjects you, topographically, to very steep hills. I live on one that averages about 15% that I ride down every day for work (back when things were normal). There are many steep hills, fast sections, and crazy/bad/unobserving drivers--really good brakes are a must. Add in rain, and they really, really are a must. The CR720s on that Cannondale stopped that bike like they were 7800 Dura-Ace dual pivot calipers on a race bike. Absolute vices. And, very importantly, they didn't make any noise. Not when dry, not when wet, and (critically) not when damp/getting wet--the damp stage is where countless canti and V-brakes (and I know how to set them up well) have failed me and made a ton of noise.

Just because the intended canti brakes aren't some inelegant $900 Paul candy-anodized pieces that never aesthetically pair with any bike ever made, doesn't mean "lowly" CR720s aren't worth it to me. $60 for a pair of CR720s sounds an awful lot like $60 for a pair of 7700- or 7400-era Dura-Ace calipers, and I don't think any of us are saying that's money not well spent. So I will recap regarding the virtues of the CR720:

1) They don't cost a million dollars
2) That not-a-million-dollars gets you a brake that stops extremely well, always, and without herculean effort
3) They don't make noise ever. Low speed stops, high speed stops (critical!), low effort stops, high effort stops, in the dry, in the wet, in the damp
4) They look good to me--simple yet well-proportioned--and aren't in shouty colors (just gloss black and polished)--not having 30 years of abuse tarnish their appearance
5) They are stupid easy to set up, unlike a number of '80s fidgety cantis were/are
6) Did I mention they stop on a dime while never making a bit of noise?

Yeah, CRs don't have the adustability of those old cantis, but they also aren't a bear to set up and then reward your effort with considerable noise in dry weather braking. I've run disc brakes as well, hydraulic disc brakes employing Ultegra level brake/shift levers and calipers...and discs on good wheels etc etc. Brakes were set up properly by a local shop. They stopped fine, but no better than 7800 calipers or CR720s. The pads got contaminated in a two mile ride in a very light rain and began making noise. Heavy, really expensive, finicky to work on/maintain, susceptible to contamination, and only 'decent' braking ability in light of the CRs or any good Dura-Ace caliper being the opposite of those things, and the choice is easy on that modern front. CRs have proved their mettle and try as I might, other brakes are found considerably wanting.

Thank you for the FC6206 suggestion. I have long been a fan of those cranksets. Timeless, elegant design to go along with them being quality units. I have a few other cranksets still not sold yet, triples mostly, in addition to the 7402 and AT, but it'll get the 7402 or AT as I'm not interested in any other choice given how good the bike is.
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Old 06-28-20, 12:40 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by gugie View Post
Seattle Powder Coat is expensive compared to most everywhere I've used. I can get a frame media blasted for $40 locally. $275 for a stocked color is pretty high. Locally in Portland I use CC Coatings, One color, your choice from the Prismatic or Cardinal catalog will run you $150 including media blasting. If you're talking decals and clear coat, $275 is a good price.
Trust me when I say I balked at that price as well. They used to be around $25 or a little more for media blasting and then $175 for a stocked color. That was fine. But another $150 on top of that is a bit princely. Property values/real estate is nuts in this city, and combined with other things, makes it expensive to keep the lights on at the very least. I was going to ask the Portland contingent of BF members where they've gone for powder coating and how they have liked the results. And now, if they're open or not.

I have the decals already, but won't be doing two coats simply to keep thickness down and lug detail up.
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Old 06-28-20, 12:53 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by jonwvara View Post
Yeah, no going back now! I should clarify that I try hard not to tell others what to do with their own bikes, though I may seem to come close to it at times. My point is that I myself am batting 1.000 on repaint regret--just a data point to consider.

Have you thought about just repainting the fork? A great touring bike deserves to look like it's been on a few tours. But maybe there's an appeal to starting with a freshly-painted bike so you know that all chips and scratches are your own chips and scratches?
I understand that data point driving your decisions. I've PC'ed three frames and have been pleased with all of them, though ultimately selling them for other reasons. This paint, prior to the work, was on the edge of the paint/no paint line. The rough/faded decals pushed it towards repaint (or at least a decal strip and re-apply). I do want to build it up as is and ride it again, but need a front cable stop (mounted at the fork) ideally, but they're sold out. I also want to build wheels for it. With all the pretty (new and used) shiny things going onto it, iffy paint and decals become the visual stragglers. This is a designer's problem, and one I get to deal with, especially with re-spraying or color-matching the fork. That grey is specific!

Another point of consideration is that this is not simply another bike in the quiver. With my selling of many bikes and components, the Expedition in all its virtue, becomes one of as few as three bikes, instead of five or seven. Consolidate and invest. Another "opus" build.

Still, I'll be cooling the jets here for another week as the PT/fitter appointment is in five or so days and a long and semi-enthusiastic walk has bothered some things just below the knee--same as biking. Didn't expect to injure myself walking (wrong shoes, at the very least), but here we are with another data point, a proverbial jalopy breaking down and coasting right into the auto repair shop.
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Old 06-28-20, 01:30 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by The Golden Boy View Post
FWIW- I LOVE the Sugino AT crankset- I'm using it on my 10 speed Trek 720- I have had at least 2 instances of the chain getting caught between the granny and middle ring. Granted, that's 2 instances in 4 years and never between the big and middle rings- but it's always in my mind now. While you're going back and forth over the AT and triplizing a DA7402, you might also want to consider the FC6206- Cold forged triple, 110/74BCD, pleasantly sculpted with relatively subtle Shimano engraving on the arms.
Maybe the granny spacers are too thick? Or the granny ring needs to flipped over?

I’ve never had that problem with my AT crank (which BTW was essentially gifted to me by ROS), although I do set my triples up to overshift using a Jump Stop to guide the chain to the granny.

Sorry, Dan, if this temporarily hijacks your thread.

PS. My vote is for Wet Charcoal. Seems like it will set off both black and silver components better with a bit more contrast.

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Old 06-28-20, 02:43 PM
  #36  
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Pics or it didn't happen, I'm hearing.

Pulled a frame down from the Atelier, this is an early 80's KHS touring frame with cantilevers. The cantilever bosses on the fork are typical for this era. I threw on a set of Tektra 720's to show how limited they are to open.



Here's the culprit:



Brake pads hit the fork blades, limiting how far they'll open. Note that the Tektra pads are on the short side for most modern cantilever brakes.

One solution is to use brakes with very short pads. Vintage MAFAC cantilevers work in this application:



Modern cantilever braze-on posts are made to braze on further apart, and stick out further from the fork.

The tiny Dia Compe brakes that came with many of these bikes (including this KHS) are on the low end in braking power, from my experience.

Moving the posts on this Expedition removes the one wart on it.
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Old 06-29-20, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by RiddleOfSteel View Post
Trust me when I say I balked at that price as well. They used to be around $25 or a little more for media blasting and then $175 for a stocked color. That was fine. But another $150 on top of that is a bit princely. Property values/real estate is nuts in this city, and combined with other things, makes it expensive to keep the lights on at the very least. I was going to ask the Portland contingent of BF members where they've gone for powder coating and how they have liked the results. And now, if they're open or not.

I have the decals already, but won't be doing two coats simply to keep thickness down and lug detail up.
Next time you're in Portlandia you could just drop it off with me, or directly to CC Coatings and save yourself a coupla Benjamins. Heck, even if you shipped it both ways you'd save money. Decal and clear coat yourself.
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Old 06-29-20, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by gugie View Post
Next time you're in Portlandia you could just drop it off with me, or directly to CC Coatings and save yourself a coupla Benjamins. Heck, even if you shipped it both ways you'd save money. Decal and clear coat yourself.
I think I may do just that. I'll combine it with a trip to my parent's shed for a "scheduled oil change" on my car, where I get to do all of that work myself, lol. Looking forward to that as it is due soon. I know I poked around the Atelier but couldn't remember which bikes you had PC'd or not (well, besides at least one Raleigh ), or if @Andy_K had gone there as well and had a photo or two of the results. Heck anyone else that's gone there. I'm having trouble finding photos online of bicycle results.
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Old 06-30-20, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by RiddleOfSteel View Post
I think I may do just that. I'll combine it with a trip to my parent's shed for a "scheduled oil change" on my car, where I get to do all of that work myself, lol. Looking forward to that as it is due soon. I know I poked around the Atelier but couldn't remember which bikes you had PC'd or not (well, besides at least one Raleigh ), or if @Andy_K had gone there as well and had a photo or two of the results. Heck anyone else that's gone there. I'm having trouble finding photos online of bicycle results.
I don't have an example to show, but I know a lot of the bikes that pass through Gugie's shop go there, and the one's I've seen looked great. Surely gugie has an example.
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