Spoke washers?
 

I have a few Nisi rims that I want to build into usable wheels, despite their age. One thing they are claimed to need (in Velobase) are spoke nipple washers, since the rims have no eyelets.

I looked up "Spoke Washers" on Google and on Amazon, and thre are at least half a dozen companies and sources, in some case with differing products. Who has built wheels with any sort of spoke nipple washer, and how have the results been?

What tension ranges are safe? I assume I cannot go to the levels one can use with say a more modern Mavic Open Pro.

What material should the washer be made of? There's a soup of metals involved - aluminum for the rim, steel or stainless for the spoke, aluminum, brass, or steel for the nipples ... What should the washer be made of? Also one of the great aspects of modern wheels is that it's relatively easy to adjust truing or dishing of a wheel with rare concerns about spoke nipples being siezed.

Contoured washers, or should I let the wheel tensioning seat the spoke/washer/rim structure?

Has anybody seen any instructions for them?

I plan to use Velox fabric 14 or 16 mm rim tape, FWIW.

The rims are 1970-ish Nisi Toro clinchers, 27 x 1 ¼ 18mm internal width, for wire bead tires. Plan to use Speedy, Pasela, or Gatorskins.

With some other Nisi Toro for tubulars, I hope to populate an older roadie or two. I haven't seen a set of Mavic Montlhery rims for sale lately nor the appropriate Normandy hubs (have some not so approptriate!), for my PX-10. I have a few pairs of Campagnolo Nuovo Tipo that I can use for this and for the Toro Clincher wheels. They will either go on my Trek 720 or a UO-8, after I upgrade the 720.

But I have at least two pairs of wheels to build without eyelets!

Aside from my own direct experience with Nisi tubular rims back in the early 1970s (my first tubular bike, 1970), I really don't know any history. Aside from Velobase, does anyone have any historical notes to offer? The seem to be regarded as rather high-end today, but Montlhery and Fiamme Reds were very highly regarded in the day.

I've built lots of wheels with spoke washers in the past. You are overthinking it. They are just small washers that you put the nipple through to reinforce the rim a bit, because there are no eyelets. They sit between the rim and the flange/head of the nipple. Other than that the wheel should be built normally.

I recently discovered the common term for them has shifted to "nipple washer". That seems to have always been the British term for them. If you search that you will find that they can still be purchased.

Sorry you think I'm overthinking it, but I am interested in input that would help me. Can you share what you have decided to use based on underthinking it? I'm trying to sort my way through to a buying decision. I was rather surprised to find at least half a dozen choices on the first Google search page.

Are you saying that you use plain carbon steel washers from the local hardware store? What if they rust? How tightly do they need to fit the nipple shank? Have you seen any failures that may have helped you come to your state of understanding of them? Where did your first ones come from?

Can you name a specific? What have you found to work?

Everyday hardware store stainless steel washers. Don't worry about dissimilar metals, they're all over the bike anyway. Just try to keep everything clean and dry.

Sorry if I offended you.

It's been a long time since I last built with washers. Probably in the 80s or very early 90s. I learned to build wheels the old school way, as a bike shop apprentice. I was taught that certain rims had to use spoke washers, and that's what I did. Nisi were very often one of those rims. I think they are a good idea on most vintage rims without eyelets. Modern rims without eyelets make up for it by using thicker material around the spoke holes. Same thing for some vintage more heavy duty rims.

I have only ever used genuine spoke washers for this. I don't think I would use carbon steel washers from the hardware store. If I had to do it now, I would most likely still use purchased 'nipple washers', since they are available. If trying to improvise from hardware store, my second choice would probably be stainless or maybe brass. I'm not sure what the old ones were. I think they were nickel plated steel, maybe nickel plated brass. Someone probably has some to test. Other than that they were unremarkable flat washers. The fit around the nipple is not super snug, but not loose. I couldn't tell you the difference in OD to ID. Perhaps someone can measure. I'd guess maybe 3 or 4 thou. I don't think it matters that much as long as the nipple can turn freely, and the hole in the washer isn't bigger than the spoke hole in the rim.

I've only used the oval thin steel washers, on rims that needed them. Maybe 10 wheels, all have survived just fine.
Like these Sapims.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...130e094f1b.jpg

One consideration - make sure the washer will fit into the hole in the rim. I ran into that issue once and had to get another smaller size.

As I told you, I found at least half-dozen products on Google and Amazon. Thanks for the useful answer. I wish you had more recent product experience, however.

For these shaped ones, I assume the curvature is concave-upward so it nestles into the trough running down the middle of the inner rim, along the circumference?

Yup, Lately, they're come in a couple of size options. PicK the one that best suits your profile but I'd bet either size does a decent job on any rim but for a few oddballs.

Yes. It follows the contour of the rim.

The washer increases the surface area under load, thus decreasing stress risers and reduces the likelihood of cracking at the spoke hole. I have a beautiful Ambrosio from the 50s that is absolutely worthless because of such cracking.

If I had a preference, I's go with the one pictured above as they have more surface area than the round ones. Also, lfat washers don't distribute load as well as contoured washers.

In the 70’s Nisi Tubular rims came with what are now often referred to a decorative washers
that are designed to accept a countersink head fastener.
On the better Nisi rims they were filled with a paste- similar I thought of at the time to residential window glazing putty.
they formed pretty readily, created a marginal seal.
i did not like building with NISI rims back then, the washers were more fuss, and the rims always seemed to have a wiggle to the width that no amount of subtle truing could resolve.
one could get them close, but not as fair as Super Champ, Martano ( also with washers but fir some reason slightly easier) or Mavic.
i have a few Nisi sets, just because Colnago, DeRosa, Pogliaghi often came with them.

the Gold 200 gram rims were of course very light.

I have a bunch of those too. Still like the ovals better.

Interesting, so the washer's inner hole has to be big enough that the nipple shank fits in, small enough that the head of the nipple does not slip through, and the washer OD has to be small enough that the washer and the nipple kind of nestle into a dimple on the inside of the rim.

Something like this one at Ebay?

https://www.googleadservices.com/pag...gQIFhA8&adurl=

You can buy theme the bag fairly cheap http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wheel-Master...w8UZaAld292058

Myself I just would not washer these .

nope

I believe repechage's nipple washers look like this (I have always want to say that :)).

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...878d4d5bd4.jpg

I’m learning that some washer use is to fill a gap between the spoke elbow and the hub flange if it’s very thin, in addition to cushioning the spoke nipple and spreading the load so as not to crack the rim. And one additional benefit of a cupped spoke-rim washer is to enable the spoke to take a straight path into the rim, minimizing stress at the spoke-nipple interface

That's probably the primary concern. I remember the original Matrix aero-profile "Iso" tubular rims had to use rectangular washers:

When I need those things I just took a nipple to Ace Hardware and got what I needed. That was many years ago and the wheels are still in use so I guess it worked out OK

If you have dimpled rims a washer, unless similarly dimpled, is a bad idea. A flat washer will have only the edge contacting the dimpled surface, and the stress will be higher than no washer at all. For the same reason, the washer should be (unless formed exactly to match the rim nipple seat) weaker than the rim material - you want the washer to deform until it matches the seating surface. If using stainless washers get VERY thin ones. I use aluminium washers when I do, and have gone to the extreme of annealing them first...

As well, if you have dimpled rims, check when lacing a wheel that the spoke holes in the dimples exit at the correct angle for your lacing pattern and hub-flange width. I ran into this problem when making wheels for a 50cc Gitane, the rim I was using was built with a much smaller hub than I intended to use. When the holes were re-drilled some of them were a bit bigger than the nipple shanks, so I had some dimpled washers made up and put them under the spokes - sorted.

who knows what that filling material is. 45 years ago it was pliable.

The rims I’m working on now are not dimpled. In fact they’re quite flat. I think for those I’ll look for brass washers.

i also have a few Ambrosios that are dimpled, but I can just cross that bridge when I get there.

Brass anneals really easily - hit it with the torch, let it cool anyway you want. They're going inside, who cares if they are not shiny.