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BATES B.A.R. 1954 build advice

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BATES B.A.R. 1954 build advice

Old 07-20-20, 02:31 PM
  #26  
JJScaliger
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Thanks for the input 63rickert!

I wanted to get a 48 or 46 chainring, but couldn't find a suitable match. This crank and bb is just to get this project rolling so I can enjoy the Bates as a built bike while I search down the right parts. I had the stronglight crank and french thread pedals sitting in a bin from a french build that never happened. Chater Lea or Williams single chainring cottered is what I want for the final solution. In addition, I think my cheap chrome english threaded headset, with a nice low 30mm stack height is going to at least solve that problem for now. I would like to get a TDC or some other period correct headset in the future. Last will probably be the wheels.

@ big block when I see a listing like that I usually think the seller isn't motivated to sell very much. I stumbled across an interesting thread on another forum, https://www.lfgss.com/conversations/229926/?offset=450 in which you and others discussed a lot of problems in acquiring period correct parts. It made for a very informative read! I'm not patient enough to wait until I have everything in hand but I feel like I made some good progress with the brakes, stem, handle bars and seatpost.
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Old 07-20-20, 03:48 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by JJScaliger View Post
@ big block when I see a listing like that I usually think the seller isn't motivated to sell very much. I stumbled across an interesting thread on another forum, https://www.lfgss.com/conversations/229926/?offset=450 in which you and others discussed a lot of problems in acquiring period correct parts. It made for a very informative read! I'm not patient enough to wait until I have everything in hand but I feel like I made some good progress with the brakes, stem, handle bars and seatpost.
Peter's builds are always enjoyable. My current project is a 1952 Hobbs Blue Riband.
Three and a half years after getting the frame, it is nearing completion. Just waiting on some tyres to be shipped (yes on a boat because there are no flights) from Japan, and parts to convert a Sturmey Archer 4 speed trigger to an ACS trigger. These are from the USA.
And I have an alternative saddle frame to recover and will probable go onto this bike. And to consider the options with that Lytaloy crankset.

I enjoy the researching, and the problem solving. And I get to ride the other bikes in the meantime.
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Old 07-21-20, 04:02 PM
  #28  
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Together again

Well, today my cheap headset came in the mail and I was able to reunite the Bates fork and frame. The headset fit perfectly with no need for spacers. 35 mm stack height. In addition I installed the head tube grease nipple which was a pita.

I checked the fork dropouts which were in perfect alignment, which is cool because this fork is super stiff. The rosette on the fork blades is wrong, it should be diadrant not cantiflex, but I can live with this faux pas. Still waiting for brakes and handlebar & stem from UK.






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Old 07-29-20, 07:22 PM
  #29  
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Some pieces to the puzzle have arrived. GB spear point stem and Reynolds aluminum Bailey track bars.







My intended seatpost came but was a 27.2 not 27.0 mm, which my frame requires. This domed reynolds seatpost was so perfect but not to be. I'll save it for another project. It feels super light.
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Waiting for brakes, levers and bottom brackets from UK.

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Old 07-29-20, 07:42 PM
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Just for the record if anyone needs this in the future, I measured this Reynolds R5 aluminum domed seatpost at approx. 27.2 with a caliper.
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Old 07-31-20, 01:36 PM
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Almost alive. Still waiting for brake levers and bottom bracket from UK.



GB standard (HIDUMINIUM)


suntour sprint

GB spearpoint and Reynolds Bailey track bars

grease nip painstakingly installed

I bought a cheap Kalloy pillar seatpost until I can find a more appropriate solution.

The bars have 50 4 stamped on them. I'm not sure if this is a date or not.

The GB standards have plenty of reach. There is plenty more if I needed it. 26" wheels, I don't know. I was concerned about the reach because I ran into a similar problem when I converted my Dawes from 27" to 700c. My Weinmann Vainqueur 999 only reach the rims when completely bottomed out.

I have a TA 46 chainring on the way for my Stronglight 49D.

The levers are new old stock GB Arret coureur with white housing and cables included. I'm thinking black cotton bar tape.

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Old 07-31-20, 02:22 PM
  #32  
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27.2 seatpost is correct. All Bates were built with 21/24 gauge butted tubing. Only way Reynolds made the Cantiflex tubes. In metric that is 0.81/0.56. With an OD for the seat tube of 1-1/8 or 28.6. Do the arithmetic. Heat distortion takes 0.2, any frame.

It is extremely common for seat lugs to get mashed somewhere in a long history. About 999 times out of 1000 it is easy to bend them back to where they belong. This one is a little bit of a surprise as the Bates seatlug is massive. But only a little. Since this is such a special frame, find a frame builder or old school steel bike mechanic who can show you the ropes. You could ride it a little while with a 27.0, some risk if done long term.

One way to damage any steel frame is to ride it without a vent. Domed top to seatpost is pretty, and then condensation stays inside. Even on a stored display piece tubes will rust from inside. Either an open top seatpost or drill a vent in bottom of BB shell. On a rider it is entirely kosher to drill the most antique shell. Or the most antique seatpost.
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Old 07-31-20, 02:26 PM
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That is same bar and stem I have. And among the parts believed to be OEM.
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Old 07-31-20, 02:57 PM
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Thanks for the info 63rickert! The 27.2 almost fits at the top but after about 3/4" in it feels too tight. I used a drill hone to try and clean out any burrs or oxidation, but it still felt too tight. I had heard that some Reynolds tubes took 27.0 so that seemed like it might have been the case. The Reynolds seatpost does have a tiny hole on the top of the dome. My bb shell does have a small hole drilled in the center. I think whoever repainted this frame added the shifter braze on and drilled a hole to install a fixture to route the cable on the bottom. I think the frame has recently been drilled for brakes as well. It had a burr inside the fork crown that looked pretty fresh.

Could you post a picture of your Bates? I would love to see it!
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Old 07-31-20, 04:08 PM
  #35  
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That is one sexy beast! Hard to not stop and stare at a Bates B.A.R. when you notice those forks.
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Old 08-01-20, 08:02 AM
  #36  
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That is one sexy beast! Hard to not stop and stare at a Bates B.A.R. when you notice those forks.
Thanks! I always thought these frames looked cool and I wanted to work on a project where the respray had already been done. Most of the bikes I've restored in the past have been more modern and scruffier. My Dawes is a good example; it has decent original paint, pretty lugs, a nice metal head badge and shiny chrome. I definitely made it more contemporary by replacing the bb and crank with a stronglight 93 cotterless and suntour derailleurs and shifters.

In the winter I bought a scruffy Raleigh Sports three speed with drop bars to use as a commuter. I basically tuned it up swapped the front wheel and tires and it was ready to roll. I've been having a blast riding it to work. It has that magic 48 x 18 direct drive which is perfect for my mostly flat commute. I started to think what would a 3 speed be like with a lighter frame, Reynolds right? So I began to hunt for a Bates or a Claud Butler with bi-laminate lugs. I saw a lot of beat down frames on ebay.uk that either had bad amateur repaints or were rusted and dinged up. Then I saw this frame with that flamboyant bottle green for a reasonable price.

The original idea was for this bike to be a 3 speed with SA AM rear IGH. I'm starting to like the flip flop idea more and more as a permanent set up.
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Old 08-01-20, 07:09 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by JJScaliger View Post
Thanks! I always thought these frames looked cool and I wanted to work on a project where the respray had already been done. Most of the bikes I've restored in the past have been more modern and scruffier. My Dawes is a good example; it has decent original paint, pretty lugs, a nice metal head badge and shiny chrome. I definitely made it more contemporary by replacing the bb and crank with a stronglight 93 cotterless and suntour derailleurs and shifters.

In the winter I bought a scruffy Raleigh Sports three speed with drop bars to use as a commuter. I basically tuned it up swapped the front wheel and tires and it was ready to roll. I've been having a blast riding it to work. It has that magic 48 x 18 direct drive which is perfect for my mostly flat commute. I started to think what would a 3 speed be like with a lighter frame, Reynolds right? So I began to hunt for a Bates or a Claud Butler with bi-laminate lugs. I saw a lot of beat down frames on ebay.uk that either had bad amateur repaints or were rusted and dinged up. Then I saw this frame with that flamboyant bottle green for a reasonable price.

The original idea was for this bike to be a 3 speed with SA AM rear IGH. I'm starting to like the flip flop idea more and more as a permanent set up.
Three speed hubs are a lot of fun if they behave themselves!
I have used a few different four speed hubs, and they are great too, even better than three speed hubs, when they behave themselves. But sadly they are all 50 or more years old, and they do not always behave themselves. Which really ruins the experience.
If you have any hills, I don't think you can beat the good old AW hub. It's just so simple... and reliable....
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Old 08-02-20, 08:05 AM
  #38  
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Three speed hubs are a lot of fun if they behave themselves!
I have used a few different four speed hubs, and they are great too, even better than three speed hubs, when they behave themselves. But sadly they are all 50 or more years old, and they do not always behave themselves. Which really ruins the experience. If you have any hills, I don't think you can beat the good old AW hub. It's just so simple... and reliable...
I've stayed away from 4 speed Sturmeys because of problems I've read about them on this forum and classic lightweights. The climbing gear wants to slip under pressure when you need it the most. Maybe not all are like that, but enough to discourage me. I have a really crisp AW late 60s 36hole hub that I plan to build with a nos Fir Rigel tubular rim. To go along with the rear I have a nos Bayless Wiley continental front hub 32 that I'm hoping to build with a corresponding Rigel rim. Not period correct, but still cool, silver and in the spirit, I think.

The Bates was bought with the intention of making it a tubular IGH 3 speed. The flip flop idea is fun, the 4 speed Campy GS idea is fun. I'll probably do all 3 setups eventually.

The flip flop Suntour sprint wheelset will probably end up on a frame I have in storage when I want a change and build up the 3 speed wheelset. Gitane Interclub? I don't know. Stronglight 49 to that when I get the proper cottered crankset for the Bates. An ancillary project made up of left over parts.
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Old 08-02-20, 08:40 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by JJScaliger View Post
Thanks for the info 63rickert! The 27.2 almost fits at the top but after about 3/4" in it feels too tight. I used a drill hone to try and clean out any burrs or oxidation, but it still felt too tight. I had heard that some Reynolds tubes took 27.0 so that seemed like it might have been the case. The Reynolds seatpost does have a tiny hole on the top of the dome. My bb shell does have a small hole drilled in the center. I think whoever repainted this frame added the shifter braze on and drilled a hole to install a fixture to route the cable on the bottom. I think the frame has recently been drilled for brakes as well. It had a burr inside the fork crown that looked pretty fresh.

Could you post a picture of your Bates? I would love to see it!
Simply cannot post photos here. At this point not even sure if I could create hard copy and mail it to you. Even paying professional photographers they want to send you a file, not deliver hard copy. Each time I learn enough to do digital photographs all the software becomes obsolete and unsupported. Each time the relearning process unfolds the teachers are more abusive. Computer people are the most insufferably arrogant superior jackasses ever created. Some are physically abusive and still demand payment. My wife works online every day, can guide me through most problems, currently she cannot make photos and just does not want to go through the process again to get weeks or months of functionality. So the only certain way for me to take photos would be to buy old film stock, build a darkroom, print them myself. Not quite there yet.

Somewhere in the archives of this site there exist photos of the bike. Photos someone else took. Posted in an smontanaro thread from last summer. Summer before?

You want an accurate seat tube bore and a seatpost that fits. Things that are supposed to remain static but donít are the worst problems to have. Yes, Reynolds made all sorts of tubes and 27.0 is a common post for English bikes. Your bike takes 27.2. I cannot tell you why your bore has a taper. I can promise you that if the bore is bigger at top the seatpost will rock. Then the seatlug cracks. Been there, done that.
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Old 08-02-20, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by JJScaliger View Post
I've stayed away from 4 speed Sturmeys because of problems I've read about them on this forum and classic lightweights. The climbing gear wants to slip under pressure when you need it the most. Maybe not all are like that, but enough to discourage me. ...
Right. I tend to be in the same camp.

That said, it is not that the climbing gear ("B") slips, but that the trigger slips from B to L. For the higher gears, the trigger shifter pulls against a rather mild spring, which is fine, but from L to B it's pulling against a much firmer spring. This puts a lot of pressure on the part of the trigger that holds it in B, and (consequently) it wears out... and then it fails.

For what is worth, any FW hub can be converted to a five speed hub, with a second shifter. This solves the problem of the slipping gear.

And, of course, you can put the guts of any AW, FW or 5S hub into the shell of any of those. Completely interchangable. The alloy shell hubs of the early 50's are especially nice, and can be found with 36 holes.
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