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HELP! Rookie on Vintage Peugeot Rebuild

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HELP! Rookie on Vintage Peugeot Rebuild

Old 07-04-20, 09:14 AM
  #26  
Mr. 66
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I wouldn't be surprised if one of those bikes has a Swiss threaded bottom bracket.
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Old 07-04-20, 11:53 AM
  #27  
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Well, after disassembling as much of the white bike as I can without a crank puller, it seems the seatpost is a millimeter or two smaller than the seat tube on the silver frame, and won't be held up by tightening :/ The headset all fits, and the handlebars are a great shape (seems like a mix of riser bars and porteur bars, I can't find any standardized list of handlebar shape names!).

At this point I might resell the silver frame and just refurbish the white one! I've seen some things online about using shims to make up the difference in tube diameter, but honestly if the white bike is in mostly one piece it seems most effective to keep it running that way. Either way I end up with a beautiful refurbished vintage Peugeot!

Thank you so much to everyone, all of your advice has been greatly appreciated, and I feel like I have so much more knowledge of and appreciation for how these old bikes are put together.
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Old 07-04-20, 10:43 PM
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Charles Wahl
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I'm not a Peugeot expert by any means, but I know a fair amount about bikes generally, and am relatively local (UWS) -- and am willing to help to the extent that I can. I haven't seen any photos of your white or silver bikes yet -- did I miss something? I do not understand your comment about the seat post above. Have you tried the seat post from the white (older? first?) frame in the silver (newer? 2nd) frame? I would expect that on a vintage French mixte, the seat post would be something like 26.2 or 26.4 mm diameter (more likely the former, or maybe even 26.0); this is often marked on the seat post. If all's well with the frame, the right size seat post should just barely slide in when the clamp bolt is loosened fully, with very little play. The post should always be greased to prevent seizing of the dissimilar metals due to corrosion. If the post won't go in, it's either too large, or there's something wrong with the frame: opening pinched or out-of-round, or post has burrs on it. If there's more than just a little play, then the post is too small in diameter.

Two things that I would suggest about overhauling the components with bearings: 1) review carefully the condition of races (both surfaces that the bearing balls roll against), to see if there is scoring or pitting -- in good light, with a magnifying glass if necessary. A very smooth worn track is OK, but any irregularity will make it hard to adjust the bearings, and in any case will only get worse with use. 2) At this point, replace all the bearing balls, no matter how they look -- they are cheap, and it's just good practice. You can buy these online easily. Be sure to count all the balls you remove from each side of every component, and double check to see whether that matches what the component should have.

As mentioned above, Sheldon Brown (who's unfortunately no longer with us, except in his excellent web site sheldonbrown.com) is an invaluable resource, as is a copy (either electronic or hard copy) of Sutherland's Handbook for Bicycle Mechanics, 4th or 6th edition. They're not that hard to find online. Another resource that can be helpful (though not necessarily for the arcana of piecing together a vintage bike) is the parktool.com website, which has a lot of videos showing how to do certain operations.

Overhauling a bike requires a fair number of specialty tools; you will find this out fairly quickly. Some things you can take to a local shop (if they're willing to help) and for a small sum have them untighten this or tighten that. Others you will need to buy or borrow, but if you continue with "bike wrenching", you will want to own a selection of these.

Last edited by Charles Wahl; 07-04-20 at 10:56 PM.
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Old 07-05-20, 07:36 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Charles Wahl View Post
I'm not a Peugeot expert by any means, but I know a fair amount about bikes generally, and am relatively local (UWS) -- and am willing to help to the extent that I can. I haven't seen any photos of your white or silver bikes yet -- did I miss something? I do not understand your comment about the seat post above. Have you tried the seat post from the white (older? first?) frame in the silver (newer? 2nd) frame? I would expect that on a vintage French mixte, the seat post would be something like 26.2 or 26.4 mm diameter (more likely the former, or maybe even 26.0); this is often marked on the seat post.
You didn't miss them, I was a newbie and the start of this thread was my first post! I wasn't allowed to post pictures yet just surpassed 10 though, so I'll show you now:

The silver frame, all I have of this is the frame and the fork

The white frame, I bought this as a full bike and disassembled it to clean and possibly transfer to the silver frame

The two seat tubes compared, the silver measured between 24mm-25mm, and the white measured between 22mm-23mm.

The seatpost didn't have any kind of writing on it that I could see, but does appear to be the original since the saddle has a Peugeot plate. The handlebar stem appears to be the same size though, and that reads 22.2.
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Old 07-05-20, 11:11 AM
  #30  
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Here's an example that's almost the spitting image of your silver frame, except that the "Grand Sport" logo is found down around the seat tube rather than up at the head tube:
Unfortunately, that doesn't divulge the year of the bike.

Pinning down the year(s) of production will help identify compatible parts:
Serial numbers of the two frames may help identify the year each was manufactured.
Any tube designations (such as "cadre allege" or "Carbolite 103" may also help -- the years for use of those tubesets are known.

Another method is to search for Peugeot catalogs for various years, and find examples that match. Here's a good site:
https://www.bikeboompeugeot.com
and in particular:
https://www.bikeboompeugeot.com/Broc...ures%20USA.htm
Your white bike looks like it might be a 1974 model, check out the UO18 (or the UE18). Colors aren't listed.
https://www.bikeboompeugeot.com/Broc...20Page%209.jpg
https://www.bikeboompeugeot.com/Broc...20Page%205.jpg
While the silver frame could be from 1980, where there's a "Grand Sport" mixte:
https://www.bikeboompeugeot.com/Broc...re%20UO19C.jpg

The white one might say "Tour du Monde" or more likely "Record du Monde". The silver frame has a plate for mounting the rear brake, which is not as classy as the tube found on the white. Obviously the silver frame is in better cosmetic shape; but whatever you do, either keep the white frame with a view to refinishing it (not necessarily, but possibly, with a full complement of replacement decals and lug striping), or else sell it to someone who has an interest in doing that!

As far as transfer of components between the two frames, this might turn out to be fairly easy, or it might end up, at least to some extent, in a hair-pulling exercise, due to changes in design, sizing, improvements between the two different years.

Peugeot seatposts:
Peugeot seatpost database
Sort of general, but it shows that a 24 mm seat post is not unreasonable for a bike(s) like yours. The silver one looks like the seat post opening may have been abraded or otherwise "mistreated" from its original state. Does the post, when inserted, say, 5" or so into the silver frame, seem particularly loose? If so, then that frame wants a larger post. It's hard to do these things with just a ruler; either you need a set of posts of known diameter, or else a dial or digital caliper, which will measure reliably to 10ths of a mm, and somewhat less reliably to hundredths. What's interesting is that in miamijim's seat post database, there's nothing between 24 and 26.4, though OLDYELLR's post #4 refers to Sutherland's, which lists about 5 sizes between them -- so I guess that the best policy is to find a reasonable post for whichever frame by empirical means: loose is bad, while if it doesn't fit easily, don't force it.

Sutherland's 6th edition is available here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qclnmckcer...206th.pdf?dl=0
Note that I've bookmarked it, but those only appear if using Bluebeam or Acrobat DC (free); Apple Preview seems to be Adobe-bookmark-challenged. The file has also been OCRed, so that you can do text searches; sometimes these fail in the 6th, because I got the original (unbookmarked, un-OCRed) PDF file from another source.
I also have Sutherland's 4th in the same format, but I don't find it helpful for much that the 6th doesn't cover equally well. I scanned this myself from a hard-copy that I own, so one thing that can be said for it is that the OCR was more successful. All that being said, I use the 6th myself almost exclusively.

The crankset on the white frame is "cottered" which is something that went out of use, generally, by the early 70s. You can read all about crankset standards and construction via Sheldon Brown. If the parts are undamaged, and will fit the silver frame, then there's no problem with that -- a lot of folks hereabouts have, like, and use cottered cranks. But if anything is amiss about them, then it might be cheaper and more practical to replace the crankset and bottom bracket (bearing unit that goes through the frame and to which the cranks are fastened) in toto. Before removing the crankset from the white frame, you should measure (within a mm is OK) the distance of one of the chainrings' teeth from the center of the bike frame (and keep track of which one it is) so that a reasonable substitute of the bottom bracket can be determined (this is "chainline". Also measure the width of the bottom bracket shell (painted) on both frames; probably the same, but could be different, and important for specifying a replacement. In any event, if the two BB shells aren't the same width and threading, you'll have some difficulty moving the white bike's cranks to the silver one. As to removing the white frame's cranks, I have no personal experience with cottered sets, but you should be able to find this on Sheldon Brown's site, and there are definitely wrong ways to do this, that result in a bent cotter, which is very bad. So be careful.

It surprises me that the handlebar stem is marked 22.2 mm; typically French bikes have a 22.0 mm stem -- one of their cardinal differences from bikes made almost everywhere else (22.2 mm being 7/8", which was the standard in England (where it started), the Low Countries, Italy. But if it's marked, and it fits both forks equally well (same criteria as for seatposts), no problem.

I don't see the top nut and threaded race for the headset, and the keyed washer and/or brake cable housing hanger that goes between them, but presume that you have them. The pressed on/in chromed headset parts on the two frames and forks may be identical, or at least compatible; but then again they may not, so you'd need to trial fit the top nut/race on the silver frame to verify if it will work acceptably. Look for "brinnelling" (indentations made by the bearing balls) in both lower races of each frame and it's fork -- that's where the real work and loading of the headset is done. The top bearing is just to establish clearance/fit and keep the fork centered on its proper axis. Generally these old chromed steel races are quite tough, but if ridden for a long time poorly adjusted they will suffer.

A final observation for now: It's unclear whether your main interest is in riding a bike (having your own that's functioning) or in having a bike project. Either is fine, but as someone who's less than highly experienced and tool-equipped, what seemed like a lark in the beginning may turn out to be a case of biting off more than one cares to chew. There's often a long road between a bike project and a functioning bike. I suggest that if you want to continue in the direction you've started, that you at least take the dispiriting "I don't have a bike to ride" pressure off of yourself by finding something that you can ride for awhile -- not the bike of your dreams, but one that will serve your purposes in the short or medium term. I am speaking from personal experience. I'm still perfectly willing to help you with technical issues going forward (though others here may have better knowledge for this case), but it's important to be practical.

Last edited by Charles Wahl; 07-05-20 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 07-05-20, 11:53 AM
  #31  
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@BrightRing, those are both nice bikes. If they were mine, I'd keep the original parts with the white one. Clean it, tune it, ride and enjoy it while taking your time building up and customizing the silver one.
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Old 07-05-20, 12:18 PM
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^^ +1. There's no reason why the silver build needs to be a money pit -- with some knowledge and research, it can be built up with more modern parts. Then you can disassemble the older one and do a wonderful refurbishment of the frame.
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Old 07-05-20, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by branko_76 View Post
@brightring, those are both nice bikes. If they were mine, i'd keep the original parts with the white one. Clean it, tune it, ride and enjoy it while taking your time building up and customizing the silver one.
+2. The silver, I believe, deserves a treatment of upgraded components, all alloy and late 70s/early 80s if possible. It’s a cool frame. And likely a little lighter than the white.

Last edited by polymorphself; 07-05-20 at 01:12 PM.
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Old 07-06-20, 09:03 PM
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If my local shop can take off the cottered crank for me to paint up the white frame, then I'll be happy with that as my part in the project and allow the pros to handle the replacement cables, tires, etc. so I can have a trustworthy bike to ride soonest!

I may decide to trade in the silver frame against the price of the repairs, but I haven't decided yet... I don't really have a use for two bikes (especially so similar) and don't really think bike restoring and selling will be the hobby for me... Either way, I'll end up with a beautiful custom/vintage bike with a long story to tell!
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Old 07-06-20, 09:15 PM
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BrightRing , if they remove the cottered crank, they should also remove the bottom bracket because it will need to be thoroughly cleaned and re-lubed.

Hopefully the bike shop has the proper tool to remove cotter pins, i.e. a cotter pin press so that the original cotter pins won't get destroyed.
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Old 07-07-20, 07:21 AM
  #36  
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Cotter pin press:
New Crank Cotter Press


"a trustworthy bike to ride soonest": you're on the right track!

Since the silver frame is clearly in better cosmetic shape (could probably serve without a refinishing), it might be interesting to weigh both frames and forks when you've gotten them torn down to the same state (kitchen scale that will go to 5 kg will do), and see if the silver one is lighter; could go either way -- Peugeot apparently changed tubesets in the interval between them. But the component compatibility issues with swapping would still be a possibility. I wouldn't get rid of the extra frame until you've successfully built up a running bike, certainly.

More photos of both bikes would be appreciated, if only for the forum's interest. You could either upload them using the tools that are part of this forum, or else put them up on Flickr or some other photo site with public access, and simply post a link. Don't hesitate to post here or email respondents if you have questions.
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Old 07-07-20, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by BrightRing View Post
The bike shop recommended this forum as a place to get some answers...
Oh how the tables have turned, an LBS recommending the forum!

Originally Posted by BrightRing View Post
...don't really think bike restoring and selling will be the hobby for me...
Already? It's certainly a bit more involving that restoring most vintage furniture, but perhaps more rewarding in the end...
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Old 07-07-20, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by BrightRing View Post
and don't really think bike restoring and selling will be the hobby for me.
Bookmark this comment and revisit in two months
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Old 07-07-20, 02:52 PM
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@polymorphself, haha!

@BrightRing, which shop recommended bikeforums? Normally I live in NYC and know a lot of shops there. I worked in the biz there, too.
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Old 07-10-20, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. 66 View Post
I wouldn't be surprised if one of those bikes has a Swiss threaded bottom bracket.
The cottered one, probably not (though one never knows). The other, though, could definitely be Swiss. Replacements are hard to find; FYI, though, Sunlite now sells a threadless "repair" bottom bracket for much cheaper than Phil Wood's.
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Old 07-26-20, 06:07 PM
  #41  
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Well, good news (not), the bike shop that removed my crank set for painting says the cotter pins would have needed to be replaced so they threw them out, and now I don't know what pins I need. I was having a different shop assemble it because my parter really trusts his place, but they can't find any cotter pins from their distributor that will work. Something about the pitch of the wedge being different (shallower, I think) from all the pins he has? That has been such a problem that everything else to be done to this crazy bike has been completely overshadowed.

Any advice on if there is a special name for the cotter pin that any of you might know about? My partner found some research that said Peugeot serial numbers have the number of digits of the decade, and start with the digit of the last number of the year, and going by that logic this bike is a UO-18 from 1972, if that's in any way a thing I can search for.
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