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Brake Upgrade - Are Dual Pivot Calipers a Noticeable Difference?

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Brake Upgrade - Are Dual Pivot Calipers a Noticeable Difference?

Old 07-22-20, 02:10 PM
  #51  
tNuvolari
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Originally Posted by scarlson View Post
Scott Superbrakes will heal the dual/single pivot schism! These have something for everybody!
These bad boys are technically a single pivot, with the power of a dual pivot! Fully adjustable pad angles! Cooling fins! Drillium! Made in America! Early CNC-era optimism/nostalgia for a simpler time when the future was thought to be good
Uh, pretty! How does the cable route though? In from the side?

Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
I notice in your photos that your Athena brakes have little bits of rust on the brake bolts. This makes me wonder if the calipers might benefit from being completely disassembled, cleaned, lubed properly and reassembled.

The Kool Stop pads always get mentioned here but I’m not a fan. They are fine I guess but that trailing edge wing make them difficult to set up. I have learned that putting a business card under the trailing edge of the partially loosened pad holders while squeezing the levers for their final rim sidewall positioning helps give the right amount of toe in. It goes without saying that there are some machined aluminum rim sidewall braking surfaces that are just better than non-machined ones or ones with bumpy seams or inconsistent dark anodizing.
Yeah, they could use an inspection and cleaning but I don't think that's my problem from the feel of things.

I had heard good things about Kool Stops and went with them. But now after doing research I'm interested in the SwissStop BXP blue pads. I think I'll find a cheap dual pivot front caliper and go with the BXP pads and use my Athena rear with the addition of Kool Stops since I already have them.

Originally Posted by repechage View Post
The Athena calipers are good for single pivot BUT both shown are not correct for the frame and fork - get Tekro with more capacity.

the front pads are going to wear and hit the tire. The rear are in the edge too.
the Campagnolo skeleton calipers will probably not have enough capacity as well.
What do you mean not correct? Because the pads are at the lowest reach setting? The pads are actually wider than the rim braking strip but I have them low enough to avoid going over the rim and hit the tire. I admit one front was slightly off in the pics but I did readjust it.

****

So for those with monoplanars, are they better/stronger? What exactly is the advantage of the mono design? I've never found an engineering description of the monoplanar design so would love to know the reasoning behind it.

And I'm wondering about using SwissStop pads on Campy calipers. There are limited options for Campy so I'm wondering if the SwissStop Flash Full pads will fit Campy? These are the full pad carrier or shoe with the pads installed and made for Shimano/SRAM so they come with the entire bolt-on assembly. They are NOT just the pads.



I know these won't fit my Athenas but will they fit newer Campy calipers? Are Shimano/SRAM similar in bolt sizing and general shape to work in Campy calipers?
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Old 07-22-20, 02:29 PM
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RE the Scott brakes

Yes, by way of a 3" 90 degree curved ss tube that fits into one side... I didn't realize, when I got them, and was a bit less than thrilled.
Eric

Simpler? That's how you see them? ok
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Old 07-22-20, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by tNuvolari View Post

So for those with monoplanars, are they better/stronger? What exactly is the advantage of the mono design? I've never found an engineering description of the monoplanar design so would love to know the reasoning behind it.
More of a marketing explanation than an engineering one, but the 1987 catalog talks about increased rigidity in a compact caliper.

More rigid than typical single pivot sidepulls? Probably, but I can't say how much.

When putting together my group, I started looking for alternatives to the Delta brakes. That led down the rabbit hole of monoplaners.

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Old 07-22-20, 03:55 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by scarlson View Post
Scott Superbrakes will heal the dual/single pivot schism! These have something for everybody!
These bad boys are technically a single pivot, with the power of a dual pivot! Fully adjustable pad angles! Cooling fins! Drillium! Made in America! Early CNC-era optimism/nostalgia for a simpler time when the future was thought to be good
So, these brakes still have minimal position error, just like other single pivot calipers?

Otto
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Old 07-22-20, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ofajen View Post
So, these brakes still have minimal position error, just like other single pivot calipers?

Otto
Right. AND they do have a sort of piano hinge like the Monoplaners! They are the brake to end all brake disputes, because they've managed to include a feature for every possible taste and desire.

Originally Posted by Last ride 76 View Post
Yes, by way of a 3" 90 degree curved ss tube that fits into one side... I didn't realize, when I got them, and was a bit less than thrilled.
Eric

Simpler? That's how you see them? ok
Hey I said simpler times, I didn't say better times!
As for the brakes themselves - they're not simple at all!! With tiny brass rollers on the back for the springs that often get stuck, about a million domed washers and things to change pad angle, teflon bushings everywhere, and funny drop-bolt mounting scheme, they rival Suntour Symmetric shifters in complexity!

Originally Posted by tNuvolari View Post
Uh, pretty! How does the cable route though? In from the side?
Yeah. My friend got a pair that was missing the curved tube for the rear one, so I used a V-brake noodle with adjuster and some specially machined bits to get everything to work right. "uh, pretty" is how a lot of people describe them!
I just like brake obscura. Sorry for hijacking the thread!
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Old 07-22-20, 06:29 PM
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At the risk of derailling the thread, for me, cycling is about going, not stopping. Weinmann Vainquer or any decent brand single pivot sidepull are sufficient for the stopping part, for me, whether on a leisure or commuting bike. I don't do touring, heavily loaded or otherwise, but I fully understand the need for more exotic brakes for heavily loaded touring, or arguably crazy pursuits such as mountain descents. I actually have one bike in my fleet, "Donk", with proper canti brakes. Donk is my shopping bike. Donk has competently carried in excess of 60lb payload on at least one occasion, but I did not set any personal or course records in the process.
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Old 07-22-20, 06:33 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by tNuvolari View Post
Oh, one thing I did notice while squeezing the levers extra hard and watching the brakes is that nearly all of the flex and lever squish happens in the pads. They compress a huge amount. I guess harder pads would grind down rims in no time.
I have experience with a few of the options you are speaking about. I have a pair of monoplaners on my Loto, using newish but original spec Campagnolo pads and stopping on nearly brand new rims. Stopping power is excellent from the drops, and pretty good from the hoods (but I'm using older style levers that aren't as ergonomic as yours). Good pads and rims make a big difference.

I also have skeleton dual pivots on a couple of my bikes (silver Potenzas on my PR, black Chorus on my Aegis), and they stop brilliantly. Both are using stock Campagnolo pads and gripping rims that are in good shape. With Ergo levers, they have more than enough power from the hoods and the drops.

I've also gotten good performance from some simple Shimano 600 single pivots that came on one of the bikes. They were paired with simple Shimano aero levers (braking only, not brifters) and newish rims. They stopped surprisingly well.

Some people here seem absolutely obsessed with Kool Stop pads, but I'm sure Campagnolo and Shimano stock pads are just as good, if not better. I'd say the most important factors are clean/good rims and the appropriate pads.
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Old 07-22-20, 06:36 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by old's'cool View Post
At the risk of derailling the thread, for me, cycling is about going, not stopping.
Good stopping lets you spend more time going and less time stopping.
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Old 07-22-20, 07:03 PM
  #59  
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I just put a pair of Centaur dual pivot brakes on my old Cannondale, along with the Tektro levers and cross levers. They stop as well as the XT V-Brakes on my commuter bike from either the hoods or the cross levers. The Centaurs have a nice finish and don't have the Swiss Cheese look, which I never liked. The Tektros are nice too considering how little they cost. The old calipers were some cheap Dia Compe that were very flexy single pulls, with levers to match. At least they didn't have suicide levers. Those brakes would stop but only from the drops. From the hoods it would make your hands hurt to stop. This new setup is basically two finger from either position. This bike is for my daughter, and she wanted suicide levers when she saw them on her friends old bike. I explained how they were called "suicide" levers within the knowing public and someone on this forum mentioned the cross levers. The first time she rode it with the new levers she almost flipped it, but she learned quickly a light touch is all that's necessary.

And that bike is a rocket. It is really stiff and fast and climbs really well. And you know what? The ride isn't all that bad, it isn't jarring like they're made out to be.

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Old 07-23-20, 06:45 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by tNuvolari View Post
And I'm wondering about using SwissStop pads on Campy calipers. There are limited options for Campy so I'm wondering if the SwissStop Flash Full pads will fit Campy? These are the full pad carrier or shoe with the pads installed and made for Shimano/SRAM so they come with the entire bolt-on assembly. They are NOT just the pads.



I know these won't fit my Athenas but will they fit newer Campy calipers? Are Shimano/SRAM similar in bolt sizing and general shape to work in Campy calipers?
Those will not fit the newer Campy calipers. Well, they will fit but not properly; the bolt on the newer Campy holders is a larger diameter so those holders will be loose in the slot. The newer Campy holders also won't fit your Athena, unless you want to enlarge the slot which would be a lot of work.

However, those Shimano style holders will fit your Athena calipers. The bolt on your Athena holder is just a hair larger, so in practice it doesn't make any difference. I use that style holder on all of my vintage brakes and I have been very happy with them. And FWIW, I have tried the SwissStop blue pads but I liked the black ones better.
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Old 07-23-20, 12:03 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
Some people here seem absolutely obsessed with Kool Stop pads, but I'm sure Campagnolo and Shimano stock pads are just as good, if not better. I'd say the most important factors are clean/good rims and the appropriate pads.
An example of the performance difference of Kool Stop salmon versus stock Shimano pads:

Every exit but one from my neighborhood in Seattle includes a descent of at least 10% for a block, ending in a stop sign. When my son, then 14, was on his first “real” ride with drop bars, dual pivots and aero levers that fit his hands acceptably. The pads were stock black Shimanos in good condition working against good rims. We headed slowly down one of those 10% grades, and he was just barely able to stop at the bottom. The remainder of the ride, selected so there no more steep grades, was uneventful, but we certainly were more cautious than usual at every intersection.

That evening I switched his pads to KS salmons; nothing else was changed. Next day, same start to a ride. He was easily able to stop at that same stop sign.

All of the bikes in my family have KS salmons now. No, they don’t wear out rims, or wear out themselves quickly.
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Old 07-23-20, 12:07 PM
  #62  
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The main issue I have with Cool Stops on my Campy NR calipers is that especially after cleaning the rim surface, they like letting out this awful screech that makes pedestrians very unhappy.
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Old 07-23-20, 12:45 PM
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I have one DA and two Ultegra dual pivots - I can't tell the difference between them. Had Campy Chorus w/Campy pads on one for a while worked fine. the Shimanos all have Yokozuna pads on them and they are fine AFA I can tell and a really quality looking pad. I really don't use the brakes much, never have. I have wheels from the 80's on the Caylor thousands of miles on them that show no brake wear. OTOH I've bought bikes that had rims so brake worn that I'm surprised they didn't explode at pressure
And the old Colnago has the original Campy brakes and pads and it seems to me to stop just fine so I'm guessing I'm not a good recommendation for advice
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Old 07-23-20, 01:03 PM
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There are big differences in performance between the stock Shimano black brake pads with the molded in tire guide shape and the pads with holders that you get at the upper level, like Ultegra. I received the former with my Sora R3000 group and the performance was lacking. An inexpensive upgrade to Ultegra pads made a very big improvement. They are excellent pads that can be used on a wide variety of calipers. Kool stops are great, but there are other excellent choices out there.
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Old 07-23-20, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by BFisher View Post
There are big differences in performance between the stock Shimano black brake pads with the molded in tire guide shape and the pads with holders that you get at the upper level, like Ultegra. I received the former with my Sora R3000 group and the performance was lacking. An inexpensive upgrade to Ultegra pads made a very big improvement. They are excellent pads that can be used on a wide variety of calipers. Kool stops are great, but there are other excellent choices out there.
Good point on the variation in pad performance with higher end Shimano.

Anybody know of a good, objective comparison of higher end brake pads, particularly as they perform on aluminum rims?
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Old 07-23-20, 02:41 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by scarlson View Post
"uh, pretty" is how a lot of people describe them!
I just like brake obscura. Sorry for hijacking the thread!
I wasn't being sarcastic; I think they are beautiful. I love industrial design where the structure of the item shows. And everyone loves drillium!

And always happy to see new designs and suggestions so no worries on hijacking at all.

Originally Posted by old's'cool View Post
At the risk of derailling the thread, for me, cycling is about going, not stopping.
Yes, but in traffic I really need strong brakes that clamp NOW without any issues. As I've stated, my present brakes aren't bad but I just want more than I need as I find myself really having to squeeze the levers much harder than I would like. This is strictly from the hoods as from the drops, I can squeeze much harder and quicker. Yes, I am being picky but if dual pivots offer more power (which from this thread I'd say they do) then I want a part of it!

Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
I have experience with a few of the options you are speaking about. I have a pair of monoplaners on my Loto, using newish but original spec Campagnolo pads and stopping on nearly brand new rims. Stopping power is excellent from the drops, and pretty good from the hoods (but I'm using older style levers that aren't as ergonomic as yours). Good pads and rims make a big difference.

I also have skeleton dual pivots on a couple of my bikes (silver Potenzas on my PR, black Chorus on my Aegis), and they stop brilliantly. Both are using stock Campagnolo pads and gripping rims that are in good shape. With Ergo levers, they have more than enough power from the hoods and the drops.

Some people here seem absolutely obsessed with Kool Stop pads, but I'm sure Campagnolo and Shimano stock pads are just as good, if not better. I'd say the most important factors are clean/good rims and the appropriate pads.
Thanks for the insight. I did notice a substantial difference when I switched to Kool Stops. They just grab quicker and offer more force with less effort. But my Campy pads were the 90's originals so I'm sure they've improved their pads in 30 years. Of course, the first few stops are the best whereas now that I've had them awhile, it's hard to notice. Ahh, the human brain: so fraught with subjective ideas....

Originally Posted by Choke View Post
Those will not fit the newer Campy calipers. Well, they will fit but not properly; the bolt on the newer Campy holders is a larger diameter so those holders will be loose in the slot. The newer Campy holders also won't fit your Athena, unless you want to enlarge the slot which would be a lot of work.

However, those Shimano style holders will fit your Athena calipers. The bolt on your Athena holder is just a hair larger, so in practice it doesn't make any difference. I use that style holder on all of my vintage brakes and I have been very happy with them. And FWIW, I have tried the SwissStop blue pads but I liked the black ones better.
Thanks so much for that info. Exactly what I needed.
But why didn't you like the Blues compared with the Blacks?

Also, when did Campy change to the newer style? And is it across the board or just the Super Record, Record and top tier groups? The SwissStop site is a bit confusing. Well, here's what it says the Race Pro (Campy fitment) fits:
FITS
  • CAMPA 10|11|12 sp
  • CAMPA Record DM
DOES NOT FIT
  • CAMPA Potenza - 2016 and newer
  • CAMPA Athena - 2016 and newer
  • CAMPA Veloce - 2016 and newer
  • CAMPA Centaur - 2017 and newer
  • CAMPA Direct DM

So is everything lower tier Campy before 2016 compatible with the Flash Fulls pictured above?

Last edited by tNuvolari; 07-23-20 at 02:48 PM.
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Old 07-23-20, 02:50 PM
  #67  
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Dual pivots have more mechanical advantage, so even most cheap ones are better than most good single pivots. There is an extra advantage: I believe they use a new allow which is stiffer than the old calipers had.

I still have one bike with single pivots, Campagnolo Record from the early 80s. When I'm going very fast, I'm sure to brake from the drops rather than the hoods. I have big hands and strong fingers. I mentally adjust the amount of force I have to use. Some would test ride my bike and claim the brakes don't work. They work fine for me. I squeeze them harder than some people can squeeze. But that doesn't make them a good brake for other people.
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Old 07-23-20, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by tNuvolari View Post
Yes, but in traffic I really need strong brakes that clamp NOW without any issues. As I've stated, my present brakes aren't bad but I just want more than I need as I find myself really having to squeeze the levers much harder than I would like. This is strictly from the hoods as from the drops, I can squeeze much harder and quicker. Yes, I am being picky but if dual pivots offer more power (which from this thread I'd say they do) then I want a part of it!
That's a good reason for preferring dual pivots or other system that requires relatively low squeezing force for a given deceleration. I'm happy to say that my cycling "walk of life" rarely requires hard deceleration, and when it does, I'm able to decelerate to the point of lockup, from the drops and the hoods.
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Old 07-23-20, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by HTupolev View Post
Good stopping lets you spend more time going and less time stopping.
That's interesting. Can you describe a real life typical cycling mission where that is valid?
Second point, by "sufficient", I mean able to lock the wheel (obviously not what you want to do, but it indicates that the brake system is able to take full advantage of the available traction). So there is no performance advantage, per se, between two braking systems, both capable of locking the wheels.
I suppose one could in bring arguments about modulation and hand fatigue, but that would take a scientific test to tease out any meaningful performance difference, in terms of "more time going and less time stopping". And then we're definitely in a scenario where braking is a very significant part of the mission, in terms of energy, which I doubt is relevant for the majority of cyclists and their riding.
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Old 07-23-20, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by tNuvolari View Post
I wasn't being sarcastic; I think they are beautiful. FITS
  • CAMPA 10|11|12 sp
  • CAMPA Record DM
DOES NOT FIT
  • CAMPA Potenza - 2016 and newer
  • CAMPA Athena - 2016 and newer
  • CAMPA Veloce - 2016 and newer
  • CAMPA Centaur - 2017 and newer
  • CAMPA Direct DM
I personally think the monoplaners like the ones you are using now are the best looking brakes ever made. That said, it should like upgrading to dual pivot should give you exactly what you want.

My suggestion would be to source a set of silver Campagnolo skeletons from any of the lines (Potenza, Centaur, no-group Campagnolo). You can find them a few places for about $50, and of course they will include new pads. Try them with the stock pads and see what you think. I'm sure it will be more than enough for your needs.
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Old 07-23-20, 06:11 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
I personally think the monoplaners like the ones you are using now are the best looking brakes ever made. That said, it should like upgrading to dual pivot should give you exactly what you want.

My suggestion would be to source a set of silver Campagnolo skeletons from any of the lines (Potenza, Centaur, no-group Campagnolo). You can find them a few places for about $50, and of course they will include new pads. Try them with the stock pads and see what you think. I'm sure it will be more than enough for your needs.
Like I said, the latest Centaur are really nice! I wouldn't think of changing the stock pads. When they wear out I would either use Koolstop Salmon or the SwissStop blue. That's not likely to happen any time soon though.
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Old 07-23-20, 06:29 PM
  #72  
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Just brake carefully on that bike with dual pivots! If you only have the one bike, you'll get the hang of it at your first corner or stop sign and be fine from there on. Squeezing dual pivots like you do your vintage brakes will surprise you. After getting the email from Eroica, I hung up my Centurion Turbo which is all I've been riding for months and took out my newer bike with Dura Ace dual pivots today: Yes there is a noticeable difference. And I have Koolstop Stop pads on the Centurion.
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Old 07-23-20, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Classtime View Post
Just brake carefully on that bike with dual pivots! If you only have the one bike, you'll get the hang of it at your first corner or stop sign and be fine from there on. Squeezing dual pivots like you do your vintage brakes will surprise you. After getting the email from Eroica, I hung up my Centurion Turbo which is all I've been riding for months and took out my newer bike with Dura Ace dual pivots today: Yes there is a noticeable difference. And I have Koolstop Stop pads on the Centurion.
Yes, most definitely. Since I ride a modern bike with dual pivot brakes I knew what to expect on that Cannondale with the new Centaurs. But my daughter almost flipped the bike just testing out the brakes the first time after getting used to the old ones. She's already used to them after a few rides. This makes me think I have to check out the bike she rode before this one, since it is a modern bike with v-brakes. They should have the same feel as the Centaur, but maybe that's why she acclimated to them so fast.
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Old 07-23-20, 08:44 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by old's'cool View Post
That's interesting. Can you describe a real life typical cycling mission where that is valid?
The fastest way around a corner generally involves braking as late as practical while hitting a good line. The faster you can come to a stop, the later you can brake. Then you spend less time braking, and are faster.

Second point, by "sufficient", I mean able to lock the wheel (obviously not what you want to do, but it indicates that the brake system is able to take full advantage of the available traction). So there is no performance advantage, per se, between two braking systems, both capable of locking the wheels.
On loose and slippery surfaces, that's sort of true. Moment-to-moment, a powerful brake won't enhance my maximal slowing rate. Although, from experience, using a weak brake on rides that require me to brake hard frequently has consequences in hand fatigue and probably also modulation.

On clean dry pavement, the amount of traction enjoyed by the front tire during hard braking efforts is immense. I've never seen anyone skid a road bike front tire on clean dry pavement as a result of braking force alone, or seen video of such a thing happening.
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Old 07-23-20, 10:14 PM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by HTupolev View Post
The fastest way around a corner generally involves braking as late as practical while hitting a good line. The faster you can come to a stop, the later you can brake. Then you spend less time braking, and are faster.
Sometimes. There are turns where this is the case. However, at least in California, most tricky descents typically have a series of curves, the pavement isn't usually great, and IME line, rhythm and control are more important.

The extra ease of braking with dual pivots can be an asset, but to me it's about a wash compared to for example old style Campy Record single pivot. I've rarely if ever run into a situation with regular campy sidepulls where I didn't have as much braking power as I needed. IOW I never have run out of squeeze. Usually traction and line issues predominate. There are some turns where the extra ease of braking with dual pivots (or center pulls) seems to be an advantage. In other cases, I have trouble with high MA brakes self modulating as I go over bumps, which reduces control, and ultimately speed through the turn.

Whatever brakes you prefer, descending skill is 90% the rider, 10% the brakes. Just my opinion.

I'm not really nuts descender any more, but it was a skill I honed BITD. Race up the hill, race down the hill...
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