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A spindle neither ISO nor JIS fit on?

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A spindle neither ISO nor JIS fit on?

Old 07-26-20, 01:27 PM
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A spindle neither ISO nor JIS fit on?

While digging thru my misc spindle box for one bike, I found a spindle to solve problems on another bike I'm converting to non-cottered.

The non-cottered spindle fits EXACTLY and chainline should be perfect ... but none of my cranksets, ISO nor JIS will fit on it.

All JIS and ISO spindles I have are 13mm square at the tip, tapering up to 14mm square. This oddball spindle I have is 14mm square at the tip, tapering up to 15mm square. The spindle is stamped with "5K" in the middle at one spot, and "7406" in another. Other than that, no markings. It came in a huge parts box I bought locally which is full of IGH parts, BMX parts, road bike parts, brake and shifter parts, misc other stuff 1940s-1980s(ish).

I can't imagine what crankset would fit on this. But it just so happens it solves my problem if I can figure things out. I can post pics if it helps.

EDIT: Here you go, this is basically the same spindle, except mine is silver steel versus dark.
EDIT2: Here's the box of parts the spindle came in, may give an idea about the original owner's flavor.
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Old 07-26-20, 02:14 PM
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The pictures donít look like my Dura-Ace, but since itís silver, perhaps itís still an example of the JIS Low Profile used on early Dura-Ace? If so, unfortunately, it probably wonít work with other cranks as they will bottom out.

See more on this page:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bbtaper.html

Otto

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Old 07-26-20, 05:14 PM
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Dura-Ace is JIS, nothing weird about Dura-Ace other than the AX pedal holes in the crankarms.

The "5" prefix suggests a 73mm bottom bracket shell.

The oversized taper might have been for BMX, where some proprietary cranks and bb's proliferated.
The integral 10mm threaded stud was only ever a thing on lower-end equipment.

What is the spindle length not including the studs?

"I can't imagine what crankset would fit on this. But it just so happens it solves my problem if I can figure things out. I can post pics if it helps."
In what way does this spindle solve (what?) problem???
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Old 07-26-20, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by dddd View Post
"I can't imagine what crankset would fit on this. But it just so happens it solves my problem if I can figure things out. I can post pics if it helps."
In what way does this spindle solve (what?) problem???
Solve my issue of converting a late 70's cottered Peugeot to cotterless crank. Standard spindles don't have the correct distance between the races, it's about 2mm short. This one just so happens to share the same race width and endpoints will put the crankarms roughly center with the cottered spindle.

Pic is worth a thousand words. In a nutshell, this is what I'm looking at. Angle I took this pic at is a little hinky so it probably looks off. Center-point of cotter channel is incredibly close to there the center-point of a properly seated arm would be on the 5K spindle. If I'm using the 3N spindle, naturally using the correct size bearings, the adjustable cup needs to be screw in so far there's only 1.5 threads for the lockring, which is insufficient.

It's been a couple years since I did this last time, and I needed to reference all of Sheldon's stuff back then to get it done. I ended up picking up a random spindle on eBay with the dimensions I needed and it worked great. The spindle I used last time was marked as 5N or 7S, I forget. That bike is long sold at this point so no way to check.
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Old 07-26-20, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by dddd View Post
Dura-Ace is JIS, nothing weird about Dura-Ace other than the AX pedal holes in the crankarms.
Sorry, but, no. Read the info on the link. I have the first gen DuraAce cranks and they (at least) are JIS Low Profile. Later generations are different and are JIS.

That said, it looks like the OP has something else and not JIS Low Profile.

Otto

Last edited by ofajen; 07-26-20 at 09:33 PM.
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Old 07-27-20, 12:08 AM
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Sheldon Brown might be able to help.

"ISO square taper spindles run longer, and taper down to a smaller end than J.I.S. spindles do. Most European-made square-taper cranks and bottom brackets use the ISO dimensions.ISO models include:
  • Campagnolo
  • Older Stronglight
  • Nervar
  • TA
  • Japanese N.J.S. track parts, such as Sugino 75
  • (Note: Old Ofmega/Avocet spindles were quite a bit skinnier/longer even than ISO. There are no modern bottom brackets that work with old Ofmega/Avocet cranks.)


Some older Shimano Dura Ace used a shorter taper than most other cranks. Most modern cranks will bottom out on the spindles from these cranks A practical option to keep J.I.S. low profile cranks in service is a Phil Wood bottom bracket with a J.I.S. Low Profile taper. If your intention is to restore a bicycle to its original appearance as a collector's item, then you will have to find an older spindle. The Internet is your friend in this endeavor."

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bbtaper.html

Good luck and cheers
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Old 07-27-20, 05:41 AM
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The compatibility issue is the angle of the taper. 5K spindles used the less common 3 degree taper. This taper was employed on some 1970s cranksets such as the SR Silver, which were found on bicycles such as the Sekine SHB/C and SHS.
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Old 07-27-20, 08:32 AM
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I have several SR cranksets, but none I've found will fit in this case. Not familiar with the SR Silver.

Any recommendations on a spindle to fit in my case, or an alternate solution? I was hoping to dig and find something in my pile. I recall I had (and now cannot find) a Sugino MW-70 spindle which fit on my last iteration of this exact same swap, BUT it wasn't quote long enough for proper chainline, nor to clear the chainstay.

Basically, I need a spindle 123mm overall with 55mm between race edges which puts me into Italian sizes. All half dozen 68mm BB I have are measuring 52mm between race edges.

On a 70mm spindle, my drive side needs to be in the ballpark of 36mm +/- 1-2mm if I want to have a hassle-free fit.

I suppose stepping up to a larger bearing with an existing of my existing spindles will just exacerbate other issues, eh?
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Old 07-27-20, 09:08 AM
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...I never had much luck in attempts to convert cottered Peugeot cycles over using the existing cups. It always seemed like the cup openings were too small, or maybe the bearing races did not match up well with the curve of the bearing surfaces on the spindle being transplanted. I confess I've just bought a French threaded sealed unit on one occasion for this purpose. Since then, most of what I've worked on has had a nice enough cottered crank that I wanted to keep and use it.
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Old 07-27-20, 09:10 AM
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Sutherland's 6th, p. 3-11:



Note that it's for a 70mm BB shell.
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Old 07-27-20, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
.....SR Silver, which were found on bicycles such as the Sekine SHB/C and SHS.
Did autocorrect get you? I've heard of [and owned a] Silstar, but not Silver
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Old 07-27-20, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Charles Wahl View Post
Sutherland's 6th, p. 3-11:



Note that it's for a 70mm BB shell.
70mm is exactly where I need to be, thanks! However, in looking at the D-Spindle Length column, I see this cuts off just a hair shy of where I need to see. Would love to see the remainder of this section if you've got it. Thanks for posting this up!

I may run down and see if I have any Campy ITA 120mm spindles (I think I do) and plop one in just to check fitment, see where my chainline is at. Would also give me an idea whether I've got some flexibility to use something in the 115-118 range rather than trying to replicate the stock 123. I suspect I can eek out a proper chainline in the 118-120 range.

And, yeah 3alarmer I feel your comment. Been there,done that. First historically-recent time I tackled this task was with a OU-18 I was rebuilding for my wife ("It's too heavy!") and it wasn't any fun then either. 2nd recent go-round I literally had a part in my spindle bin that was an excellent match. This time ... not loving it so much! Basically it looks like a hunt to find a spindle in the 70-73mm BB range if you want to make it happen, then do your best to ballpark the DS/NDS crank centerline positions.
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Old 08-01-20, 08:10 PM
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Can anyone say what the numbers and letters on spindles mean, beyond what Sheldon has already said? I know
3 = 68mm,
5 = 70mm,
7 = 73mm

I assume the letters relate to the left and right measures. I'm sure N, S, P all have meanings. Like,what measure would a 5SN or 5SP be?
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Old 08-01-20, 08:40 PM
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What is the length of British/JIS offset spindle you are looking for I'm pretty sure someone here on the BF's as one or can suggest were you can find one?

As for other solutions you could run a modern sealed one peace BB within a couple of the right length then just some spacers to get a good chain and tread line.

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Old 08-01-20, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by zukahn1 View Post
What is the length of British/JIS offset spindle you are looking for I'm pretty sure someone here on the BF's as one or can suggest were you can find one?
I'm pretty sure I've got one now. Will know tomorrow and post back if it's the case.

But the one thing which would be helpful would be understanding what the stamped markings mean on spindles. Seems the stamping follow a pattern of #X X or #X where # is 3, 5 or 7. and X are letters. I understand what the # designates but not the X.

I know Sutherland's has a long list of markings on spindles. But I suspect there's a "decoder ring" for spindle stampings so anyone at any shop could pick one up, look at the stampings and know immediately, "Ah yes, this is for a 68mm shell w/triple crank".

We know # indicates the bb shell width. Now just need to know what the X and XX letters mean. I suspect it's the left/right sizing.
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Old 08-01-20, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by zukahn1 View Post
As for other solutions you could run a modern sealed one peace BB within a couple of the right length then just some spacers to get a good chain and tread line.
Call me stubborn, but I'm not spending more on a BB ($50) than the entire bike cost ($10). Not when you can get the correct spindle and achieve the same goal for $8-15.
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Old 08-01-20, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by francophile View Post
Can anyone say what the numbers and letters on spindles mean, beyond what Sheldon has already said? I know
3 = 68mm,
5 = 70mm,
7 = 73mm

I assume the letters relate to the left and right measures. I'm sure N, S, P all have meanings. Like,what measure would a 5SN or 5SP be?
The best cheat sheet I know of is Sheldon Brown it's old but correct.
https://sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-bottombrackets.html
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Old 08-01-20, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by zukahn1 View Post
The best cheat sheet I know of is Sheldon Brown it's old but correct.
https://sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-bottombrackets.html
There's absolutely nothing on that page about standalone spindles or spindle stampings, and very little about spindle sizes, unless I'm missing something. It's totally possible, I'm getting blind in my old age..

Best reference Sheldon put out is the list of spindles over here: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bbsize.html

I know Sutherland's has a crapton of info in the tabbed binder, but don't have a copy.

If I can ever get my hands on reference info, guess I'll post a thread about it. Maybe it'll help someone else in the future.
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Old 08-02-20, 06:45 AM
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Sutherland’s 6th ed is available online: https://www.scribd.com/doc/45037747/...cs-6th-Edition
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Old 08-02-20, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by nlerner View Post
Sutherlandís 6th ed is available online: https://www.scribd.com/doc/45037747/...cs-6th-Edition
Thank you so much! This is exactly what I needed:

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Old 08-02-20, 02:12 PM
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Thank you @francophile for starting this thread.

I learned.

about spindles, tapers, etc
about cottered conversions
about why I've avoided older French bikes

Muchas gracias y muy bien.
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Old 08-02-20, 02:44 PM
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So what bikes came with 65mm bb shells? That’s a new one to me (and I’m old).
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Old 08-02-20, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by nlerner View Post
So what bikes came with 65mm bb shells? That’s a new one to me (and I’m old).
If I'm not mistaken, it's a track bike thing. I've probably rebuilt 1,000 or more frames personally from the ground up and I've never encountered one myself, nor have I come across hardware that fits it. But virtually everything I've worked on pre-1990s was multispeed, so that may have something to do with it
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Old 08-02-20, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by francophile View Post
If I'm not mistaken, it's a track bike thing. I've probably rebuilt 1,000 or more frames personally from the ground up and I've never encountered one myself, nor have I come across hardware that fits it. But virtually everything I've worked on pre-1990s was multispeed, so that may have something to do with it
Yes 65 MM shells are basically older track or very old geared stuff 1950's or older.
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Old 08-03-20, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Ex Pres View Post
Did autocorrect get you? I've heard of [and owned a] Silstar, but not Silver
It's definitely SILVER, not SILSTAR. The Sekine spec sheets stated SILVER and Sutherland's specifically mention Silver as one of the oddball crankasets with 3 degree taper. The model name doesn't appear on the crankarms themselves but on the dust cap, which is typically missing.

Just as strange was the SR GRAND SILVER, which was an aluminum cottered crankset.
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