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1 Tange headset question

Old 07-29-20, 04:51 PM
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JacobLee
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1 Tange headset question

Howdy Folks,

Ive been going through an 87 Specialized Hardrock with a 1 Tange headset. My 32mm headset wrench fits fine on the wrench flats on the cup, but the locknut seems to be slightly larger. Is this a 33, or something? I can fit a 12pt 32mm closed end wrench over it, or a crescent wrench, but I thought Id see if this is a normal quirk that everyone but me knows about!



Nope!



Nope!



Sorta?
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Old 07-29-20, 05:14 PM
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I always use my headset wrench on the adjustable cup and my adjustable crescent on the locknut.
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Old 07-29-20, 06:33 PM
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there are "tolerances" in any manufactured item so you may have a top nut here that is at the largest acceptable limit that passed inspection, or it slipped by (when it should have been rejected as too big).That's the beauty of an adjustable (Crescent) wrench, you can make it fit! I do have a Park HS wrench that's UNDERsize IIRC, stamped as 31mm, maybe to accommodate a certain line of HS that didn't follow later ISO standards? Not the 30mm that's used for juvenile HS I guess...anybody know?
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Old 07-29-20, 06:48 PM
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A nice big 14" adjustable crescent wrench will purchase those flats and end all your worries.
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Old 07-29-20, 06:51 PM
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Knipex pliers/wrench works well too
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Old 07-29-20, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
there are "tolerances" in any manufactured item so you may have a top nut here that is at the largest acceptable limit that passed inspection, or it slipped by (when it should have been rejected as too big).That's the beauty of an adjustable (Crescent) wrench, you can make it fit! I do have a Park HS wrench that's UNDERsize IIRC, stamped as 31mm, maybe to accommodate a certain line of HS that didn't follow later ISO standards? Not the 30mm that's used for juvenile HS I guess...anybody know?
Youre probably right about the tolerances. Maybe its like the Trabant in East Germany, where they used the body molds so many times that the car grew an inch over its production span.
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Old 07-29-20, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ramzilla View Post
A nice big 14" adjustable crescent wrench will purchase those flats and end all your worries.
How do you fit an adjustable wrench on the top race and a headset wrench (or any other wrench, for that matter) on the lock nut at the same time?
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Old 07-29-20, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by madpogue View Post
How do you fit an adjustable wrench on the top race and a headset wrench (or any other wrench, for that matter) on the lock nut at the same time?
I think he meant like this:


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Old 07-29-20, 08:16 PM
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Maybe the timer on the plating tank apparatus failed on the day that this locknut passed through.

Perhaps also the locknut was over-torqued to a degree that expanded it's outside dimensions?
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Old 07-29-20, 08:44 PM
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Anyone who owns any headset wrenches knows how thin they are. Sorry, I didn't notice the first statement in the OP, that the headset wrench DOES fit the top race. Then yes, that makes the obvious solution to use the headset wrench on the race and an adjustable on the lock nut. I thought the OP's issue was the other way 'round. THAT could be a dilemma.
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Old 07-29-20, 08:47 PM
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Sorry, didn't notice the first sentence in the OP. I thought the issue was the other way 'round, that the top race was too big for the headset wrench. THAT would be a dilemma. The actual situation is, as photographed, easily solved.
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Old 07-29-20, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by madpogue View Post
Sorry, didn't notice the first sentence in the OP. I thought the issue was the other way 'round, that the top race was too big for the headset wrench. THAT would be a dilemma. The actual situation is, as photographed, easily solved.
Absolutely. I wasnt wondering how to get a crescent wrench on the locknut, I was wondering if many people had seen locknuts from Tange, or other reputable manufacturers, that were oversized. I just thought it was weird.
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Old 07-29-20, 09:13 PM
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+1 to Knipex + Adjustable Wrench Combo
also i've used this one, from an old E30 Bimmer


all 3 can take up to 33mm-ish nuts
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Old 07-29-20, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by JacobLee View Post
Absolutely. I wasnt wondering how to get a crescent wrench on the locknut, I was wondering if many people had seen locknuts from Tange, or other reputable manufacturers, that were oversized. I just thought it was weird.
Now that you mention it, I have encountered one or two that were an extremely tight fit. Fortunately I also have a Wrench Force brand headset wrench along with my Park Tools, and the WF is just the slightest bit looser fit. I have had to resort to using the WF wrench when the Park wrench wouldn't slip on easily.
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Old 07-29-20, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by madpogue View Post
Now that you mention it, I have encountered one or two that were an extremely tight fit. Fortunately I also have a Wrench Force brand headset wrench along with my Park Tools, and the WF is just the slightest bit looser fit. I have had to resort to using the WF wrench when the Park wrench wouldn't slip on easily.
Alrighty, then, sounds like a manufacturing defect, and not a secret wrench size.

Thanks
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Old 07-29-20, 11:05 PM
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The only wrench that I use on the top nut is an adjustable wrench, mainly because I can tighten it down to zero clearance, and because of it's wide jaws.

I have a technique to go with that, using a lower torque level, but repositioning the wrench to tighten all three pairs of flats. This distorts the top nut in three directions instead of just one, allowing better tightening without rounding alloy nut corners and without shearing the washer key.
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Old 07-29-20, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by ramzilla View Post
A nice big 14" adjustable crescent wrench will purchase those flats and end all your worries.
Oh, right, NOW you tell me. 🙄😁😉 Im having a similar issue with a Tange bottom bracket, in which a perfectly respectable 12 Crescent wrench, isnt quite big enough for the flat-sided cup. And I might need to start a thread, to find out about my headset. The 85 Miyata catalog says Tange, but it has some weird-looking serrated washer-type bits in the headset, that Im not familiar with. 🤔
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Old 07-29-20, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by dddd View Post
The only wrench that I use on the top nut is an adjustable wrench, mainly because I can tighten it down to zero clearance, and because of it's wide jaws.

I have a technique to go with that, using a lower torque level, but repositioning the wrench to tighten all three pairs of flats. This distorts the top nut in three directions instead of just one, allowing better tightening without rounding alloy nut corners and without shearing the washer key.
Thats great advice, and interesting as well. I had never really thought about it before, but doesnt the locknut actually have four sets of flats? I was noticing that when I took the pic of my twelve point wrench over the top of it. I guess its not like a normal six-sided nut, because its got a great, big hole in the middle. So, bigger wrench and more flats.

Thanks!
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Old 07-29-20, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by JacobLee View Post
Thats great advice, and interesting as well. I had never really thought about it before, but doesnt the locknut actually have four sets of flats? I was noticing that when I took the pic of my twelve point wrench over the top of it. I guess its not like a normal six-sided nut, because its got a great, big hole in the middle. So, bigger wrench and more flats.

Thanks!

Right you are, it's no "hex" nut. Same as with Stronglight bottom bracket fixed cups, eight flats (I use a 1-1/2" twelve-point socket on those).

It might be a struggle to tighten all four pairs of flats, but more is better, especially when those reflector brackets are sandwiched into the headset and I'm trying to end up with proper headset adjustment AND a straight-ahead bracket at the same time. It also helps to lubricate all of the mating surfaces below the nut.
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Old 07-30-20, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by dddd View Post
I have a technique to go with that, using a lower torque level, but repositioning the wrench to tighten all three pairs of flats. This distorts the top nut in three directions instead of just one, allowing better tightening without rounding alloy nut corners and without shearing the washer key.
I'm not understanding something. If you used the same torque level three times on different sets of flats, what would the second and third tightenings do? Just adjust the shape (distortion) of the nut, without really moving the locknut's relationship to the race nut? If, on the other hand, you tighten three times on different sets of flats, but each time increase the torque a bit to reach final tightness, then I get it.
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Old 07-30-20, 12:14 PM
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The IRD Rollerdrive on my Trek has the exact same issue actually. I think they are Tange made?
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Old 07-30-20, 12:27 PM
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Have you tried 1-5/16"? ​​​​​​ ​

Originally Posted by JacobLee View Post
Howdy Folks,
Ive been going through an 87 Specialized Hardrock with a 1 Tange headset. My 32mm headset wrench fits fine on the wrench flats on the cup, but the locknut seems to be slightly larger. Is this a 33, or something? I can fit a 12pt 32mm closed end wrench over it, or a crescent wrench, but I thought Id see if this is a normal quirk that everyone but me knows about!
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Old 07-30-20, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by tiger1964 View Post
Have you tried 1-5/16"? ​​​​​​ ​
Ive got a lot of wrenches, but my standard set tops out at 1 1/4, so I think Ill stick with the crescent.
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Old 07-30-20, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles Wahl View Post
I'm not understanding something. If you used the same torque level three times on different sets of flats, what would the second and third tightenings do? Just adjust the shape (distortion) of the nut, without really moving the locknut's relationship to the race nut? If, on the other hand, you tighten three times on different sets of flats, but each time increase the torque a bit to reach final tightness, then I get it.
No, I keep the torque the same as I go around the nut torquing pairs of flats.
The nut creeps along, tighter as I go around, gets all of the threads good and settled so it stays tight with minimal wrench torque.

Sometimes I'll be turning the wrench with my left hand while using my right hand and elbow to keep the reflector bracket from rotating and the handlebar from turning.
But I do manage to get the nut well-tensioned in spite of the reduced torque. Again, the threads and flats need to be lubed.
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Old 07-30-20, 04:58 PM
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I've noticed some of my older Raleigh headsets have different dimensions depending on which flats are measured. Never occured to me that they could be deformed.

I imagine, using a tool like the one below would cause deformation due to, in addition to torque, compression...

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