Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Sugino VP triple question

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Sugino VP triple question

Old 07-30-20, 07:02 PM
  #1  
JacobLee
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 310

Bikes: More Than Enough

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 138 Post(s)
Liked 108 Times in 61 Posts
Sugino VP triple question

Okay everybody, bear with me, but Iíve got another stupid question about a component on the 87 Hardrock that Iíve been going through. First of all, this thing has been ridden maybe 20 miles, so I assume itís untouched, but you never know. This is a 6 speed bike, round rings.

Iíve never seen spacers in an OE crank, but this one had thin washers spacing the middle ring away from the big ring. Then, the granny was flipped around so the lettering faced inward, another thing Iíve never seen. Of course, there are so many things that Iíve never seen, so I thought Iíd ask! I does seem like Specialized was mixing and matching parts like crazy, so maybe this was some sort of mod? All of the Stumpjumpers from this year had Biopace.




JacobLee is offline  
Old 07-30-20, 07:25 PM
  #2  
dddd
Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race
 
dddd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Northern California
Posts: 7,518

Bikes: Cheltenham-Pederson racer, Boulder F/S Paris-Roubaix, Varsity racer, '52 Christophe, '62 Continental, '92 Merckx, '75 Limongi, '76 Presto, '72 Gitane SC, '71 Schwinn SS, etc.

Mentioned: 105 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 919 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 308 Times in 237 Posts
I went through a pile of mtb triple cranks the other day, and I noticed that all of the cranks having thin (cheap) middle rings also had 1.25mm spacers under the middle ring tabs.
None of the ones with higher-quality, thicker chanrings had these spacers.

There was also a big change in chain width when 7s chain arrived, but here I think that the spacers would have not adjusted the chainring spacing in the right direction since chainrings were moving closer together not further apart. Still, it's possible that the spacers would have allowed the factory to tailor cranksets for use with standard- or narrow-width chain.
dddd is offline  
Old 07-30-20, 07:28 PM
  #3  
zukahn1 
Senior Member
 
zukahn1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Fairplay Co
Posts: 7,899

Bikes: Current 79 Nishiki Custum Sport, Jeunet 620, notable previous bikes P.K. Ripper loop tail, Kawahara Laser Lite, Paramount Track full chrome, Raliegh Internatioanl, Motobecan Super Mirage. 59 Crown royak 3 speed

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 425 Post(s)
Liked 142 Times in 104 Posts
I have a vintage Hardrock with this crank set this crank shouldn't have spacers on the big or middle ring these are a after market mod, the only spacers are are the ones on the granny if there not cast in they Sugino changed the casting during the production run so some have spacers and some don't and all the chain rings should have the labeling facing outtward on these Sugino strait rings it was fairly common to flip slightly worn chain rings to get more life out of the rings. If it was working good and shifting nicely when you took it apart I would suggest you put it back together the way you got with the spacers.
zukahn1 is offline  
Old 07-30-20, 08:06 PM
  #4  
bikemig 
Senior Member
 
bikemig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Middle Earth (aka IA)
Posts: 17,327

Bikes: A bunch of old bikes and a few new ones

Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4623 Post(s)
Liked 1,003 Times in 686 Posts
I've seen spacers like this on more than a few triple cranks from that era. I assumed they were OE. I am rebuilding a 1991 Specialized Rockhopper. The Mountain LX crank has spacers just like this. I'm reasonably confident that these were original to the bike.
bikemig is offline  
Old 07-30-20, 08:59 PM
  #5  
JacobLee
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 310

Bikes: More Than Enough

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 138 Post(s)
Liked 108 Times in 61 Posts
Originally Posted by dddd View Post
I went through a pile of mtb triple cranks the other day, and I noticed that all of the cranks having thin (cheap) middle rings also had 1.25mm spacers under the middle ring tabs.
None of the ones with higher-quality, thicker chanrings had these spacers.

There was also a big change in chain width when 7s chain arrived, but here I think that the spacers would have not adjusted the chainring spacing in the right direction since chainrings were moving closer together not further apart. Still, it's possible that the spacers would have allowed the factory to tailor cranksets for use with standard- or narrow-width chain.
These are a matched set of Sugino rings, so who knows. Yeah, youíd think if it were meant for 5 speed, they wouldnít want to space it out.
JacobLee is offline  
Old 07-30-20, 09:01 PM
  #6  
JacobLee
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 310

Bikes: More Than Enough

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 138 Post(s)
Liked 108 Times in 61 Posts
Originally Posted by zukahn1 View Post
I have a vintage Hardrock with this crank set this crank shouldn't have spacers on the big or middle ring these are a after market mod, the only spacers are are the ones on the granny if there not cast in they Sugino changed the casting during the production run so some have spacers and some don't and all the chain rings should have the labeling facing outtward on these Sugino strait rings it was fairly common to flip slightly worn chain rings to get more life out of the rings. If it was working good and shifting nicely when you took it apart I would suggest you put it back together the way you got with the spacers.
This was an estate sale time capsule, so it hadnít been ridden, but the tires were rotten, and I didnít want to ride it. No wear on the rings, really.
JacobLee is offline  
Old 07-30-20, 09:04 PM
  #7  
JacobLee
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 310

Bikes: More Than Enough

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 138 Post(s)
Liked 108 Times in 61 Posts
Originally Posted by bikemig View Post
I've seen spacers like this on more than a few triple cranks from that era. I assumed they were OE. I am rebuilding a 1991 Specialized Rockhopper. The Mountain LX crank has spacers just like this. I'm reasonably confident that these were original to the bike.
Maybe they were trying to prevent chainring rub on ďnewĒ 6 speed freewheels, which would have been wider? I was just wondering if it was something that the guys at Bike & Hike Would have done.
JacobLee is offline  
Old 07-30-20, 10:19 PM
  #8  
balindamood 
Wrench Savant
 
balindamood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: 61 Degrees North
Posts: 2,234

Bikes: Yes

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
My experience is that spacers on the inner/middle rings was not uncommon in the 1980's. Not the majority of them, but I am never surprised when i come across them.
__________________
"Where you come from is gone;
where you are headed weren't never there;
and where you are ain't no good unless you can get away from it."
balindamood is offline  
Old 07-30-20, 11:12 PM
  #9  
madpogue 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Madison, WI USA
Posts: 5,046
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1611 Post(s)
Liked 667 Times in 510 Posts
Does the granny ring have indentations in the bolt holes on either surface? If one side does, that would tell you if the ring had actually been flipped.

Is the front shifter indexed or friction?
madpogue is offline  
Old 07-31-20, 08:40 AM
  #10  
zukahn1 
Senior Member
 
zukahn1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Fairplay Co
Posts: 7,899

Bikes: Current 79 Nishiki Custum Sport, Jeunet 620, notable previous bikes P.K. Ripper loop tail, Kawahara Laser Lite, Paramount Track full chrome, Raliegh Internatioanl, Motobecan Super Mirage. 59 Crown royak 3 speed

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 425 Post(s)
Liked 142 Times in 104 Posts
The front shifters on a late 80's Hardrock would be a friction thumby.
zukahn1 is offline  
Old 07-31-20, 09:50 AM
  #11  
JacobLee
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 310

Bikes: More Than Enough

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 138 Post(s)
Liked 108 Times in 61 Posts
Originally Posted by madpogue View Post
Does the granny ring have indentations in the bolt holes on either surface? If one side does, that would tell you if the ring had actually been flipped.

Is the front shifter indexed or friction?
The granny has recessed bolt holes on the same side as the lettering, all facing inward.
JacobLee is offline  
Old 07-31-20, 09:53 AM
  #12  
JacobLee
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 310

Bikes: More Than Enough

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 138 Post(s)
Liked 108 Times in 61 Posts
Originally Posted by zukahn1 View Post
The front shifters on a late 80's Hardrock would be a friction thumby.
Rear shifter is index/friction, for 5000, 7000, 9000 Derailleurs.
JacobLee is offline  
Old 07-31-20, 10:52 AM
  #13  
79pmooney
A Roadie Forever
 
79pmooney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 8,666

Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder

Mentioned: 100 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2398 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 839 Times in 566 Posts
Two thoughts as to how this might have occurred. (The flipped inner ring and the spacers between middle ring and spider.)

First (pure guess, but Sugino has always struck me as a company with their ear to the ground WRT bike manufacturing trends. I'm guessing this crankset was made for the transition from the 5,6-speed 3/32" chains of the '70s to the 7,8-speed narrow chains of the '80s Sugino knows there are still holdouts using the old FW standard and 3/32" chains. So they retool or start machining off a tad of web to the new standard and simply add those washers to retrofit them for 3/32'. All the cranks go down one assembly line until chainring assembly. Then 80% continue on and 20% get separated out. 80% get rings, no washers. 20% get washers and different, 5,6-speed packaging.

As for the the inner ring's lettering in the inside? Well the recess is inside also so apparently Sugino intended that. (I know from working on a lot of triples that seeing the stamped tooth size on an inner ring from the outside is hard. I usually have to get a flashlight. Sugino was doing bike shop mechanics a favor.

So, if you are running old-school 5,6-speed FW and chain, keep the washers. If you re upgrading to 7,8-speed and the narrower chain, take them out.

Funny but I just installed a similar year crankset on my best 9-speed bike because those old cranks had straight arms and the old square taper spindles and allow tailoring to get very low Q-factors, even running a triple. (Think knees!) (Q-factor, the distance apart the outsides of the cranks are at the pedals, ie how bowlegged you are while riding.) Now going old 3/32" standard to 9-speed presented challenges. Inside ring is far enough in that that no derailleur I have found yet would sift on to it. I beat that one by adding a thin plate inside the outer cage so it pushed the chain in sooner and further. Works with a lot of chain rub. (I have a better approach coming but it requires machined parts.)

Second challenge was the no-mans land between the middle and outer chainrings, Outer to middle was not a reliable or predictable shift. Obviously I needed pins or ramps or something to keep the chain from falling into that space. Well the rings are a mishmash of models and brands. Outer is a very thick Shimano ring, probably of many years ago. So I drilled 4 holes in it and ran screws and Nylocks from the inside so the heads were at the space. Dremelled the heads to a nice ramp guiding the chain out to the middle ring. Works nicely but looks far, far from ordinary! Knees love it.. (And for Q-factor freaks - 144. On a 50-38-23. Chainline is 42. Running straight, stock Campy 9-speed in back. 130. I have the BB spindle to go 5mm closed but that is - at least of now - far out of the range of FDs.)

I love the old cranksets because there is so much you can do with them. But it does take its fair share of assemble, try it out, remove, tweak and repeat. Good BB tools make the process a lot more fun!

Ben
79pmooney is offline  
Old 07-31-20, 11:10 AM
  #14  
madpogue 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Madison, WI USA
Posts: 5,046
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1611 Post(s)
Liked 667 Times in 510 Posts
Originally Posted by JacobLee View Post
The granny has recessed bolt holes on the same side as the lettering, all facing inward.
In that case, it wasn't flipped. That's the side the bolt heads are supposed to sit on, so the lettering facing inward is correct and original.
madpogue is offline  
Old 07-31-20, 11:44 AM
  #15  
Narhay
Senior Member
 
Narhay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada
Posts: 3,288
Mentioned: 96 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 773 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 223 Times in 148 Posts
My Miayata 615 came with washers like that on a shimano FC-B124 triple crank.
Narhay is offline  
Old 07-31-20, 02:24 PM
  #16  
JacobLee
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 310

Bikes: More Than Enough

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 138 Post(s)
Liked 108 Times in 61 Posts
Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
Two thoughts as to how this might have occurred. (The flipped inner ring and the spacers between middle ring and spider.)

First (pure guess, but Sugino has always struck me as a company with their ear to the ground WRT bike manufacturing trends. I'm guessing this crankset was made for the transition from the 5,6-speed 3/32" chains of the '70s to the 7,8-speed narrow chains of the '80s Sugino knows there are still holdouts using the old FW standard and 3/32" chains. So they retool or start machining off a tad of web to the new standard and simply add those washers to retrofit them for 3/32'. All the cranks go down one assembly line until chainring assembly. Then 80% continue on and 20% get separated out. 80% get rings, no washers. 20% get washers and different, 5,6-speed packaging.

As for the the inner ring's lettering in the inside? Well the recess is inside also so apparently Sugino intended that. (I know from working on a lot of triples that seeing the stamped tooth size on an inner ring from the outside is hard. I usually have to get a flashlight. Sugino was doing bike shop mechanics a favor.

So, if you are running old-school 5,6-speed FW and chain, keep the washers. If you re upgrading to 7,8-speed and the narrower chain, take them out.

Funny but I just installed a similar year crankset on my best 9-speed bike because those old cranks had straight arms and the old square taper spindles and allow tailoring to get very low Q-factors, even running a triple. (Think knees!) (Q-factor, the distance apart the outsides of the cranks are at the pedals, ie how bowlegged you are while riding.) Now going old 3/32" standard to 9-speed presented challenges. Inside ring is far enough in that that no derailleur I have found yet would sift on to it. I beat that one by adding a thin plate inside the outer cage so it pushed the chain in sooner and further. Works with a lot of chain rub. (I have a better approach coming but it requires machined parts.)

Second challenge was the no-mans land between the middle and outer chainrings, Outer to middle was not a reliable or predictable shift. Obviously I needed pins or ramps or something to keep the chain from falling into that space. Well the rings are a mishmash of models and brands. Outer is a very thick Shimano ring, probably of many years ago. So I drilled 4 holes in it and ran screws and Nylocks from the inside so the heads were at the space. Dremelled the heads to a nice ramp guiding the chain out to the middle ring. Works nicely but looks far, far from ordinary! Knees love it.. (And for Q-factor freaks - 144. On a 50-38-23. Chainline is 42. Running straight, stock Campy 9-speed in back. 130. I have the BB spindle to go 5mm closed but that is - at least of now - far out of the range of FDs.)

I love the old cranksets because there is so much you can do with them. But it does take its fair share of assemble, try it out, remove, tweak and repeat. Good BB tools make the process a lot more fun!

Ben
Thanks so much for all the info and tips! Good to know that the crank is so adaptable. I like the idea that they were forward thinking with the casting, then sort of back dating with the spacers. Makes sense!
JacobLee is offline  
Old 07-31-20, 02:25 PM
  #17  
JacobLee
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 310

Bikes: More Than Enough

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 138 Post(s)
Liked 108 Times in 61 Posts
Thanks for all the observations, everyone. So cool to be able to tap the collective memory.


Last edited by JacobLee; 07-31-20 at 06:25 PM.
JacobLee is offline  
Old 07-31-20, 08:07 PM
  #18  
zukahn1 
Senior Member
 
zukahn1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Fairplay Co
Posts: 7,899

Bikes: Current 79 Nishiki Custum Sport, Jeunet 620, notable previous bikes P.K. Ripper loop tail, Kawahara Laser Lite, Paramount Track full chrome, Raliegh Internatioanl, Motobecan Super Mirage. 59 Crown royak 3 speed

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 425 Post(s)
Liked 142 Times in 104 Posts
Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
Two thoughts as to how this might have occurred. (The flipped inner ring and the spacers between middle ring and spider.)

First (pure guess, but Sugino has always struck me as a company with their ear to the ground WRT bike manufacturing trends. I'm guessing this crankset was made for the transition from the 5,6-speed 3/32" chains of the '70s to the 7,8-speed narrow chains of the '80s Sugino knows there are still holdouts using the old FW standard and 3/32" chains. So they retool or start machining off a tad of web to the new standard and simply add those washers to retrofit them for 3/32'. All the cranks go down one assembly line until chainring assembly. Then 80% continue on and 20% get separated out. 80% get rings, no washers. 20% get washers and different, 5,6-speed packaging.

As for the the inner ring's lettering in the inside? Well the recess is inside also so apparently Sugino intended that. (I know from working on a lot of triples that seeing the stamped tooth size on an inner ring from the outside is hard. I usually have to get a flashlight. Sugino was doing bike shop mechanics a favor.

So, if you are running old-school 5,6-speed FW and chain, keep the washers. If you re upgrading to 7,8-speed and the narrower chain, take them out.

Funny but I just installed a similar year crankset on my best 9-speed bike because those old cranks had straight arms and the old square taper spindles and allow tailoring to get very low Q-factors, even running a triple. (Think knees!) (Q-factor, the distance apart the outsides of the cranks are at the pedals, ie how bowlegged you are while riding.) Now going old 3/32" standard to 9-speed presented challenges. Inside ring is far enough in that that no derailleur I have found yet would sift on to it. I beat that one by adding a thin plate inside the outer cage so it pushed the chain in sooner and further. Works with a lot of chain rub. (I have a better approach coming but it requires machined parts.)

Second challenge was the no-mans land between the middle and outer chainrings, Outer to middle was not a reliable or predictable shift. Obviously I needed pins or ramps or something to keep the chain from falling into that space. Well the rings are a mishmash of models and brands. Outer is a very thick Shimano ring, probably of many years ago. So I drilled 4 holes in it and ran screws and Nylocks from the inside so the heads were at the space. Dremelled the heads to a nice ramp guiding the chain out to the middle ring. Works nicely but looks far, far from ordinary! Knees love it.. (And for Q-factor freaks - 144. On a 50-38-23. Chainline is 42. Running straight, stock Campy 9-speed in back. 130. I have the BB spindle to go 5mm closed but that is - at least of now - far out of the range of FDs.)

I love the old cranksets because there is so much you can do with them. But it does take its fair share of assemble, try it out, remove, tweak and repeat. Good BB tools make the process a lot more fun!

Ben
Very good info and observations very people seem to pay attention to Q-Facters Pedal to middle of bike distance and pedal to aligned chain in middle can make a big difference on how a bike rides. They can be big when riding in the mountains with triple and nearly critical on SS gravel Grinder trainer Switched mine from cheap single speed crank to a nice vintage triple MTB running a single steel vintage MTB and it made a tone of difference.
zukahn1 is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.