1975 Masi Gran Criterium - just acquired
09-28-22, 10:23 PM
#51
framebuilder
Sorry for the slow reply. I was trying to build up my post number so I could attach photos, but they also restrict you to 5 in 24 hour. This is a tough crowd!!!
To answer your two questions:
First: I had taken the steerer off several times before and it has always been a bit confusing to me. Based on what you wrote, I took a look at again today and it is still confusing. So, the steerer is actually stamped B608 in the metal in the typical place you would expect right above the crown fork, which is what has confused me in the past as this would not correspond to any typical Masi dating I am aware of. However, on closer inspection and with a good wiping down of all the grease on it, I also saw it was labeled with the number 970 or 972. That said, this is not stamped on the steerer like B608 is, but rather it was written with some sort of marker (Think thick sharpie). The last number is hard to see completely and if I had to vote I would say it is a zero. This is confusing in light of the response to the second part of the question.
Second: Yes, the fork crown is the twin plate model. I contacted Bob Hovey probably close to 15 years ago and he was a tremendous resource and help. He was the one who informed me the M on the bottom bracket had been cut-out. I was also confused by the stamp above the bottom bracket. I was reading it as V60F which made no sense to me based on everything I had read. He was the one who explained that there were also half sizes of some frames and the F was actually a 5 and there was a point in between. Thus V60.5. This was hard to see because of the repaint covering things a bit.
I guess this may very well not be the original fork, but something that was added on during the repaint. It is a twin plate that I can assure you. However, I have no clue where it comes from given the stamping.
I would be interested in trying to fix this back to original form if possible, just because. So, I would appreciate it very much if you could explain how to carve the M in a piece of metal to repair it.
To answer your two questions:
First: I had taken the steerer off several times before and it has always been a bit confusing to me. Based on what you wrote, I took a look at again today and it is still confusing. So, the steerer is actually stamped B608 in the metal in the typical place you would expect right above the crown fork, which is what has confused me in the past as this would not correspond to any typical Masi dating I am aware of. However, on closer inspection and with a good wiping down of all the grease on it, I also saw it was labeled with the number 970 or 972. That said, this is not stamped on the steerer like B608 is, but rather it was written with some sort of marker (Think thick sharpie). The last number is hard to see completely and if I had to vote I would say it is a zero. This is confusing in light of the response to the second part of the question.
Second: Yes, the fork crown is the twin plate model. I contacted Bob Hovey probably close to 15 years ago and he was a tremendous resource and help. He was the one who informed me the M on the bottom bracket had been cut-out. I was also confused by the stamp above the bottom bracket. I was reading it as V60F which made no sense to me based on everything I had read. He was the one who explained that there were also half sizes of some frames and the F was actually a 5 and there was a point in between. Thus V60.5. This was hard to see because of the repaint covering things a bit.
I guess this may very well not be the original fork, but something that was added on during the repaint. It is a twin plate that I can assure you. However, I have no clue where it comes from given the stamping.
I would be interested in trying to fix this back to original form if possible, just because. So, I would appreciate it very much if you could explain how to carve the M in a piece of metal to repair it.
I became an expert in lug carving. I was inspired by the semi-fancy lugged Hetchins I bought in 1969. I teach my framebuilding class students how to do this. If you PM me I'll send you the written instructions on how it can be done. Essentially what you will do is draw the pattern on a graph printed on Vellum patter (it can be erased many times and is somewhat translucent). Doing it twice life size makes it a lot easier to get it right and then the pattern can be reduced down when it is xeroxed onto sticky back paper that can be attached to a thick tube as a cutting guide. A jewelers saw and files can do the cutting and final shapng. I can supply the dimensions by measuring my Masi.
My Masi is a V58. There is some debate what the initial (roman letter) means before the size is stamped in numerals. I think it refers to the city where that frame was made. Faliero had them contracted out to different builders in different cities.
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09-29-22, 08:22 AM
#52
Newbie
Let me introduce myself. I'm an American framebuilder that learned in England in 1975. I mostly just teach framebuilding classes now (I was a high school teacher in the early 70's right after I finished grad school) although I sometimes do repair and repaints. In 1972 my parents picked up for me in Milan a Masi Gran Criterium. There are pictures of them doing this on Hovey's site. There was quite a bit of correspondence before to get the sizing right. My steerer is stamped 9-72 which in Masi speak means it was made in September in 1972. I'm going to assume the sharpie marking on your fork is going to be 972, too (not 970 like you thought it might be). If I remember right, Bob Hovey thought my twin plate fork crown was the earliest he knew about at the time. There was another 9-72 twin plate Masi barn find posted about recently. You can find that subject thread in C&V what is it worth forum. Our bikes must be brothers made the same month. My guess is that your fork is original and not a replacement because it is a twin plate made the same time as mine and the barn find.
I became an expert in lug carving. I was inspired by the semi-fancy lugged Hetchins I bought in 1969. I teach my framebuilding class students how to do this. If you PM me I'll send you the written instructions on how it can be done. Essentially what you will do is draw the pattern on a graph printed on Vellum patter (it can be erased many times and is somewhat translucent). Doing it twice life size makes it a lot easier to get it right and then the pattern can be reduced down when it is xeroxed onto sticky back paper that can be attached to a thick tube as a cutting guide. A jewelers saw and files can do the cutting and final shapng. I can supply the dimensions by measuring my Masi.
My Masi is a V58. There is some debate what the initial (roman letter) means before the size is stamped in numerals. I think it refers to the city where that frame was made. Faliero had them contracted out to different builders in different cities.
I became an expert in lug carving. I was inspired by the semi-fancy lugged Hetchins I bought in 1969. I teach my framebuilding class students how to do this. If you PM me I'll send you the written instructions on how it can be done. Essentially what you will do is draw the pattern on a graph printed on Vellum patter (it can be erased many times and is somewhat translucent). Doing it twice life size makes it a lot easier to get it right and then the pattern can be reduced down when it is xeroxed onto sticky back paper that can be attached to a thick tube as a cutting guide. A jewelers saw and files can do the cutting and final shapng. I can supply the dimensions by measuring my Masi.
My Masi is a V58. There is some debate what the initial (roman letter) means before the size is stamped in numerals. I think it refers to the city where that frame was made. Faliero had them contracted out to different builders in different cities.
09-29-22, 03:57 PM
#53
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Thanks for all this valuable information. After this message, I will have the ability to PM you. My only concern with the markings on the steering tube is based on the two examples on Bob Hovey's site under the photographing section. In both cases, the date is clearly stamped in the metal. There is another bike registered there from 1972 that is stamped V60.5 on the bottom bracket with a twin plate crown. So this makes sense for the bottom bracket stamp and the time period. As I said the label done with the marker is hard to read the last number. The 97 is clear, the last number his 0 or 2, but as you say 2 makes more sense.
