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Problem with nuovo record and cogs

Old 08-10-20, 03:12 AM
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Problem with nuovo record and cogs

Hi all,

I've been running in some gearing issues with a campy Nuovo Record RD and a suntour cog.

The 2 highest gears are fine and never skip, however when I go to gear 1 to 4 I run into problems. Chain skips under even light pressure and tends to run over the gears.

I correctly aligned hanger and RD, already renewed the chain to a KMC X8 which should be compatible for 6 to 8 speeds, with correct length.

Only other thing I can think of is that cogs are worn out but imo they don't look worn?

Any ideas?

Thanks in advance!

Max

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Old 08-10-20, 04:28 AM
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Do you have a different freewheel to try out?
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Old 08-10-20, 04:29 AM
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While the picture is out of focus and it would be better to see the full freewheel and its sprockets without a chain and stays partially blocking the view, I'd guess you are correct that the smallest sprockets are significantly worn.

In my experience sprockets first show signs of wear on the inside which is impossible to see unless they are removed from the freewheel body. Your sprockets show wear on the outside which normally occurs well after the inside side of the sprockets are no longer usable.

As an aside, the 4th sprocket, which has a "0" stamped into it, I've never seen that on a Suntour sprocket, and I've handled 1000s of Suntour sprockets. Interesting. Also, the "divide" on the ends of the teeth of the largest sprockets is more consistent with Regina, Atom and Maillard freewheels.
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Old 08-10-20, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh View Post
While the picture is out of focus and it would be better to see the full freewheel and its sprockets without a chain and stays partially blocking the view, I'd guess you are correct that the smallest sprockets are significantly worn.

In my experience sprockets first show signs of wear on the inside which is impossible to see unless they are removed from the freewheel body. Your sprockets show wear on the outside which normally occurs well after the inside side of the sprockets are no longer usable.

As an aside, the 4th sprocket, which has a "0" stamped into it, I've never seen that on a Suntour sprocket, and I've handled 1000s of Suntour sprockets. Interesting. Also, the "divide" on the ends of the teeth of the largest sprockets is more consistent with Regina, Atom and Maillard freewheels.
You are totally correct! I was mistaking with an old suntour freewheel I removed before, this one is Maillard.

I have 2 other Maillards laying around but need to clean them before trying.

See attached better photos. I might order a Subrace 6sp freewheel to eliminate any uncertainty...

Cheers


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Old 08-10-20, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by MaxDB View Post
You are totally correct! I was mistaking with an old suntour freewheel I removed before, this one is Maillard.

I have 2 other Maillards laying around but need to clean them before trying.

See attached better photos. I might order a Subrace 6sp freewheel to eliminate any uncertainty...

Cheers


Something else which I'm not sure plays a role in you current problem, but which would definitely be a problem on it's own (If it's actually happening)... In the middle picture, the second and third cogs are abutting each other, with no space between them. They then appear to collapse at the bottom of the picture toward the largest cog... If this is an optical illusion, I cannot see beyond it. If it is not an optical illusion I don't understand how it occurred Cheers, Eric
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Old 08-10-20, 07:03 AM
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MaxDB the second picture shows two stacked sprockets in the second lowest gear! Are you comparing the wear?

Are the Maillards freewheels? As in screw on as opposed to their cassette like offering.
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Old 08-10-20, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by MaxDB View Post
Are you perhaps missing a spacer between the second and third sprockets?

N.B. If it were my bike, I'd ditch the Maillard freewheel and go with a modern one with profiled teeth on the sprockets.
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Old 08-10-20, 07:30 AM
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The cogs are an optical illusion. The cogs look a little worn to me. I would try a different freewheel and see. The KMC chain is nice but I have found a NOS Sedis works wonders if you can find one. A picture taken directly from the rear would be nice so we can see the alignment. How are the pulleys on the der.?
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Old 08-10-20, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by MaxDB View Post
You are totally correct! I was mistaking with an old suntour freewheel I removed before, this one is Maillard.

I have 2 other Maillards laying around but need to clean them before trying.

See attached better photos. I might order a Subrace 6sp freewheel to eliminate any uncertainty...

Cheers

I spy MaxDB ! Nicely polished Campagnolo hub shaft!
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Old 08-10-20, 07:43 AM
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Thanks for the answers guys. Yes indeed optical illusion. See pics below. I'll try to clean the other Maillards asap but I'm working on girlfriends bike for the moment so might not be this week.

Probably better off ordering a new freewheel and then see without bothering with the used stuff and end up cursing even more 😂

Well spotted about the campy hub btw 😆

Jockey wheels are also brand new from Tacx
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Old 08-10-20, 08:45 AM
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Are you running a triple? where is the chain line here? Full side pic maybe? and do you wax your chain?
BTW, love the color and polish...
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Old 08-10-20, 02:29 PM
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remember a new chain on a worn freewheel makes the skipping/jumping problem worse
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Old 08-10-20, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by steve sumner View Post
remember a new chain on a worn freewheel makes the skipping/jumping problem worse
Yep. That can happen. Freewheel skipping is the classic indication of worn out teeth. Usually it isn't obvious to the eye.

Sometimes it can be staved off by adding a chain link and/or moving the wheel back slightly to get a bit more wrap around the teeth.

I usually figured two chains per freewheel. IOW, starting with new chain and freewheel, ride the first chain for about 5000 miles, replace with chain #2 , ride another 5000 miles. Then toss both chain and freewheel and start over. This assumes the chain and freewheel etc is cleaned and lubricated regularly. A dirty or over-oiled chain will drastically shorten drivetrain life.
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Old 08-10-20, 03:01 PM
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My thought, maybe mentioned already - KMC 6-7-8 speed chain. 6-speed FW. But that looks like it could be an old 6-speed FW, not a narrow 6 with the same spacing as a 7 or 8-speed. Easy way to check - the dropout spacing, If it is 120mm, tha tis old school 6-speed. 120mm means it is the newer, narrow 6 and the same as 7 and 8.

The chains for old school 6-speeds were the same 3/16" chains that had been used for decades. Narrow 6, 7s ans higher required narrower chains. The newer narrow chains might run over the older freewheels but it is not guaranteed. The solution might be as simple as getting the older standard chain (which I am sure KMC makes, QBP carries and any bike shop can get). If you have calipers,,use those first. (120mm = 4 3/4", 126mm = 4 15/16")

A little history - 1976: all derailleur chains were 3/16". Freewheels were 5-speed and ran in 120mm dropouts or 6-speed of the same wide spacing in 126mm dropouts. 1977 SunTour previewed the Superbe line-up. Also a narrow 6-speed Winner FW that fit in 120mm dropouts. The narrow 7-speed for 126 soon followed. (I worked in a Fuji shop in 1977. The Fuji Pros with their Suberbe grupps were gorgeous but were old-school 6-speed. We had the narrow 6 FWs in stock. Next year I was n a different shop, post head injury, so I wasn't in a place to see what Fuji and SunTour were doing other than I had just received my replacement Fuji Pro with its 126 spacing. All my wheels were 120 and I had enough on my hands that I simply asked the mechanic to shrink my Fuji to 120. (I know - horrors!)

Ben
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Old 08-10-20, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
The chains for old school 6-speeds were the same 3/16" chains that had been used for decades.
You mean 3/32".
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Old 08-10-20, 03:26 PM
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Fresh chain, worn freewheel... might work on the stand but skip under a road test.
many of the sprockets on this freewheel can be flipped, they are symmetrical and slide on.
Not all of them though.
Freewheel cogs do not last forever.


Super Power... last time I read that it was in reference to late Steam era locomotives by Lima.
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Old 08-11-20, 09:26 PM
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Personally I can't imagine having a Maillard or Regina freewheel on a bike I want to ride. Been pretty much a practice since the late 70's for me to toss the things ASAP.
and Atom's too naturally
but that might just be me of course - always looking for the easy way out

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Old 08-14-20, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
My thought, maybe mentioned already - KMC 6-7-8 speed chain. 6-speed FW. But that looks like it could be an old 6-speed FW, not a narrow 6 with the same spacing as a 7 or 8-speed. Easy way to check - the dropout spacing, If it is 120mm, tha tis old school 6-speed. 120mm means it is the newer, narrow 6 and the same as 7 and 8.

The chains for old school 6-speeds were the same 3/16" chains that had been used for decades. Narrow 6, 7s ans higher required narrower chains. The newer narrow chains might run over the older freewheels but it is not guaranteed. The solution might be as simple as getting the older standard chain (which I am sure KMC makes, QBP carries and any bike shop can get). If you have calipers,,use those first. (120mm = 4 3/4", 126mm = 4 15/16")

A little history - 1976: all derailleur chains were 3/16". Freewheels were 5-speed and ran in 120mm dropouts or 6-speed of the same wide spacing in 126mm dropouts. 1977 SunTour previewed the Superbe line-up. Also a narrow 6-speed Winner FW that fit in 120mm dropouts. The narrow 7-speed for 126 soon followed. (I worked in a Fuji shop in 1977. The Fuji Pros with their Suberbe grupps were gorgeous but were old-school 6-speed. We had the narrow 6 FWs in stock. Next year I was n a different shop, post head injury, so I wasn't in a place to see what Fuji and SunTour were doing other than I had just received my replacement Fuji Pro with its 126 spacing. All my wheels were 120 and I had enough on my hands that I simply asked the mechanic to shrink my Fuji to 120. (I know - horrors!)

Ben
Thank you for that bit of wisdom! Always good to be learning by more experienced people!

I did have to widen the dropouts so yes it was 120mm with old 6speed.

Originally Posted by canopus View Post
Are you running a triple? where is the chain line here? Full side pic maybe? and do you wax your chain?
BTW, love the color and polish...
Running the original 52-42 crankset and yes I do wax my chain.
Thanks!

Originally Posted by Salamandrine View Post
Yep. That can happen. Freewheel skipping is the classic indication of worn out teeth. Usually it isn't obvious to the eye.

Sometimes it can be staved off by adding a chain link and/or moving the wheel back slightly to get a bit more wrap around the teeth.

I usually figured two chains per freewheel. IOW, starting with new chain and freewheel, ride the first chain for about 5000 miles, replace with chain #2 , ride another 5000 miles. Then toss both chain and freewheel and start over. This assumes the chain and freewheel etc is cleaned and lubricated regularly. A dirty or over-oiled chain will drastically shorten drivetrain life.
In the meantime I cleaned up another old 6sp Maillard FW and this one is only skipping on the 4th gear under heavy load so hereby confirmed that it's worn cogs on the old freewheels.

I have received new 14-24 and a 14-28 FW's by mail so one of those will be used to avoid any damage or wreckage because of the skipping .

Thank you all for the answers and help! Much appreciated!
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Old 08-14-20, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Steel Charlie View Post
Personally I can't imagine having a Maillard or Regina freewheel on a bike I want to ride. Been pretty much a practice since the late 70's for me to toss the things ASAP.
and Atom's too naturally
but that might just be me of course - always looking for the easy way out
I ride an old ItalVega with a very nice Regina freewheel and it works flawlessly. I got it a year and a half ago from Pastor Bob and it is very nice . It did Eroica California and many other miles. I live on a hill and really put the gears to the test under load and have not had any issues. I have Shimano(old style) and SunTour as well on other bikes they all work great. My daughter had Pastor Bob do her Regina freewheel on her Raleigh many years ago and that one still works great. Maybe just a maintenance issue? I think because they are hard to work on that the maintenance gets neglected and then fail.
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Old 08-14-20, 09:46 AM
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The unfortunate truth was that Regina, Maillard, et., were inferior products compared to those from Japan. It did not take long for the market to realize that and adjust accordingly. If I want to use old freewheels (and I do on three bikes) I prefer to not indulge in any semi-masoochistic activities and use instead Shimano products. Works for me but JMO of course
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Old 08-14-20, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Steel Charlie View Post
The unfortunate truth was that Regina, Maillard, et., were inferior products compared to those from Japan. It did not take long for the market to realize that and adjust accordingly. If I want to use old freewheels (and I do on three bikes) I prefer to not indulge in any semi-masoochistic activities and use instead Shimano products. Works for me but JMO of course
Which Shimano FW's do you exactly use for your bikes? I've bought Sunrace 6speeds now
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Old 08-14-20, 01:48 PM
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How about the chainrings? Are they in good shape? I had a chainring that was worn enough to cause skipping under force and when I replaced it everything was good again. It is worth taking a look at it.
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Old 08-14-20, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by MaxDB View Post
Which Shimano FW's do you exactly use for your bikes? I've bought Sunrace 6speeds now
DA sixs and sevens and 600's in six now. 40-45yrs ago I was a SunTour user.
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