cdeasuk

Hi everyone,

I'm new here, been reading through some related posts but figured I'd post up to ask some advice. Firstly, I'm not super knowledgeable with this (that's why I'm here I guess). This is my dad's old Peugeot, I think it's a PR-10, serial number indicates it's from 1970, which is about right, he seems to say he picked it up 2nd hand around '71/72.

I've had it for about 10 years now since he's not used it longer. From what I can tell, it's pretty much all original French parts apart from a Cinelli Unicantor saddle.

A quick rundown:
58cm frame
Stronglight crank set and chainrings
Mafac "racer" brakes
Mafac brake levers
Simplex derailleur
Normandy hubs
Rigida Chrolux Rims (27x1.25)
531 main 3 tubes, simplex rear and the half chrome front.
120mm rear drop out

It's a bit beaten up. Plenty of chips (one by the front badge is particularly big) on the paint, cable housing is falling apart, I can hear something is probably up with the bearings on the rear hub...

I basically want to keep the bike going and safe for as long as possible, I've enjoyed riding it these years, currently it's being used everyday and I want to continue. Apart from probably needing a good service, new cables and housing, and a full, proper clean.

My main concern now is changing the wheels out. It's harder to find any decent 27x1.25" tyres and I could only find one available nearby when I needed to replace recently, both the tyres are more bulky than I'd like as well... The Rigida rims are steel, patterned, and dangerously useless for braking when there's any rain. With 120mm rear drop outs, I understand it's not easy to get anything new and keep the gears, I've got 6 on the rear right now, would like to keep it at least 4 or 5. I'm wondering if the best thing to do at this point is to get the hubs serviced and some new 700c rims laced to them? Not the cheapest option. Or is it better to have someone cold set it and just put a new wheelset in?

I'm not sure what else might need looking at on it going forward, but I'd like to bring it back to all it's glory (shy of having it entirely repainted and new decals...), keeping it as original or appropriate as possible. So any tips from people who have restored these would be most appreciated!

Thanks!

cdeasuk

Didn't know I had to have 10 posts to put photos or a URL!

francophile 

FYI: If you want to post pics, there's a personal gallery section on here where you can upload photos. Then just let one of us know and we'll link them up for everyone to see.

I'm sure you're correct in your PR-10 assessment, but folks here could give you a sanity check by seeing the fork crown, head tube lugs, and the rear dropouts to name a couple of spots.

You know, you can just re-lace the existing rims to a same-sized set of alloy Weinmanns or something. A shop would probably do it for the same price as a new set of wheels if you don't feel confident in it. At least then there's no issues with spacing and other stuff. Just sayin'.

May want to have them re-pack the hubs while in there for a little extra $$ if it's not something you're comfortable with. If you haven't serviced the bottom bracket or headset in the last 5-10 years, it's something else to take care of. Just know this bike uses French-threading (all metric), something newer bike mechanics may not be aware of. Oh, and DO NOT let them throw away your MAFAC half-hoods if still intact on the levers. I had a friend who took his Le Champion to a shop to have the bars re-wrapped and the newbie mechanic threw away his MAFAC half-hoods in good shape because he didn't understand how they worked w/barrels and such, replaced with some Cane Creek hoods, re-wrapped his bars, and sent him on his way after charging him for the new hoods!

About 150-200 miles later, all hell broke loose due to the Cane Creek hoods and he lost function of one of his brakes on the way to work. Brought it to me, like, "what's wrong with this? It doesn't work or look right". DUH!

But yeah. Just be aware. Not all shops can handle vintage.

madpogue 

Hmm, 6-speed on such an old bike with 120mm spacing is unusual. Later in the decade, Suntour introduced an "ultra-6" freewheel, with 6 cogs in a packaged sized the same a 5-speed. So it's remotely possible you have one of those. otherwise, since you have a 6-speed rear, I would check to see if the rear triangle has already been cold set to 126mm, or perhaps they just spread the triangle to fit a 126 axle. Do you have a dial/electronic caliper? Measuring the axle OLD and dropout spacing would shed some light.

francophile 

I'm also pretty sure the PR-10 came with alloy rims. The Rigida Chrolux/Chromolux/etc. wheels came on the lower-end bikes, PA-10 and below if memory serves. I'd need to dig back on catalogs to see.

First thing I thought when I saw it had those was "ah - wheels replaced, or this is a lower model than OP suggests". But I've been wrong before

Curious, cdeasuk where are you located? Is the UK in your nickname indicative of your location?

rustystrings61 

1. If the bottom bracket has not been serviced, it will need to be attended to. You will need a specific Stronglight crank tool or the modern Stein made for them. This period Stronglight crank is threaded for a 23.35 mm puller; vintage T.A. used 23.0, and everyone else uses 22.0. Non-Stronglight tools will thread in, sort of, but then there's risk of stripping the threads.

2. What madpogue said. Though I am currently running two SunTour Ultra-spaced 6-speed clusters on bikes with nominally 120 mm rears.

3. The wheels you describe are NOT stock for this model. PR-10s came stock with Normandy Sport hubs laced to tubular rims for sewup tires. The wheels sound like the stock units from a UO-8, which makes sense, and was probably done before the bike left the shop with its first owner. That, or the first owner got tired of flat tires.

Cool bike, and good luck!

cdeasuk

Ah yes, album is here: bikeforums.net/g/album/18804792

Thanks Francophile!

Well, I wouldn't mind coming off the 27" and going to 700c for more ease/choice in new tyres, especially as I guess there is going to become less and less as the time goes on. The Mafac racer brakes look like they have enough room at the bottom to drop to 700c.

Well, one thing was whether these normandy hubs are worth keeping in there as well? They've lasted this long, not sure if they were repacked last time the bike got a service (about 10 years ago), so I guess they have some years left in them if they get some care. Just wouldn't want to put new rims on them and then after realise they should have been swapped out.

And re vintage bikes and shops, I'm aware. I've had enough trouble with guitars and assume there might be some similarities! Tbh that's one of the reasons I'm posting here, to get a better idea of what needs doing as I know some shops are all too happy to swap parts without telling you and charging you after, I had a problem with that a few years ago when I snapped a chain and the shop were trying to swap parts across the bike...

rustystrings61 

700C will work just fine with those Mafacs on that bike - the stock sewups and 700Cs are the same diameter. As far as the Normandy hubs go, there were many of them made, and if you poke around there are still stashes of parts for them. I personally think they are better than they are credited for being, but recognize they are ancient and considered obsolete.

Nice bike, btw. 58 cm and larger is around the point where the difference between Reynolds 531 and generic tubing in stays becomes less of an issue, according to what I have read.

bertinjim 

The bike under discussion:

francophile 

Took a good look at the pics, you shot the most important stuff. I concur it's a PR10 based on the cast form crown, lack of chrome legs on rear triangle for the glaring obvious.

I see it's using all the typical Delrin-plastic derailleurs. Nothing wrong with that, except Delrin has a penchant for cracking. Front mech will crack at/around the band. Rear mech will usually crack on the body near the pivot on either end.

I would assess the grease situation for the bottom-end, the headset, and the hubs heeding the warning about which puller to use above. If all is OK, no heavy pitting, re-pack with fresh grease and bearing balls, then consider getting a shop to re-lace a pair of suitable 700C rims onto the hubs.

bikemig 

Those wheels are likely replacement wheels since the bike came stock with 700c wheels. It may have come with tubulars and these 27 inch steel rim wheels are replacements.

Nothing wrong with 27 inch and tires are available. But alloy rims are better.

This bike has a lot of sentimental value and is well worth fixing up to make road worthy. I'd opt for 700c wheels. New wheels will be 126 mm in the rear so you will have to spread the rear triangle. This is not difficult. These wheels are very good and decently priced:

https://www.velomine.com/index.php?m...s3blfk0ier1mv6

I'd get these wheels, overhaul the bike and replace parts as needed. There are a few oddities in reworking a French bike but we can talk you through this.

philbob57

The thing that makes aluminum wheels better is that they can be stopped when wet. Steel rims, not so much. It's safety, not the usual weight/aerodynamics/coolness factor that distinguishes between bike parts.

Narhay

700c alloy wheels in 120 or 126mm spacing come up fairly regularly. I'd keep an eye out on the local ads to source a pair. Then the world is your oyster in regards tire selection. The nice thing is the freewheel threading will almost definitely be english so your freewheel choices go up.

Or build your own wheels but it is a bit of a learned skill.

cdeasuk

Thanks for the all the replies!

So... Had a check and found the 6 speed freewheel is the 2nd none French part, it's a Shimano MF Z012, 14-28. I'm thinking that was swapped by shop a few years ago after I had a chain break... Anyway, I measured the rear drop out again to be more sure, and yep, it's still really does look pretty dead on 120mm, so not sure if that Shimano is slim like the Suntour or what... But I don't think the rear drop has been cold set already so I'm not sure what's going on there, maybe that freewheel, like the SunTour mentioned, was made to fit this drop out?

Francophile, I didn't know that about the Delrin derailleurs... I inspected them this morning and don't see any signs of cracking, so I'm thinking I will leave them on... Still shifting well to be honest. I'm guessing I'd be looking for something like Simplex SLJ 5500 or 6600 as an upgrade there?

Cheers for the wheel recommendation bikemig, will check them out. Definitely what I need to weigh up, whether to get a full wheelset or put new rims onto the normandy hubs (after opening them up and checking they're still good...)

Philbob, absolutely, this was my main concern when I decided to try and restore it a bit, I live in the UK after all...

madpogue 

I have one of those Shimano MF-Z012 6-speed freewheels, and it's not "ultra" spaced, it's a standard 6-speed width. The rear triangle didn't "sproing" a bit (well, more than a bit) when you removed the wheel? Check the OLD of the axle itself, just to double-check.

Another possibility is that someone played with the axle spacing, moving a spacer from the NDS to the DS, or changing spacer widths, to accomodate that freewheel on a hub with a 120-spaced axle. But that, of course, would have required re-centering the rim via spoke tension, which would increase the dish of the wheel. All fine if it works, but you'll want to be watchful of the drive side spokes.

bikemig 

The rear triangle is hi tensile steel. It is easy peasy to spread. Those wheels I linked to are attractively priced, good wheels.

Those simplex derailleurs are expensive. There are alternatives. You don't need a simplex for the front derailleur. The simplex drop out presents some issues but there are a number of good solutions.

This is a good discussion:
Derailleur Hangers Demystified - Red Clover Components

A simplex rear derailleur will do the job. So will a derailleur on a hanger. It's tough to beat an old suntour derailleur for shifting; you could get a good one on a hanger and call it a day.

Charles Wahl

There are more reasonbly-priced replacements than the SLJ series for a Simplex Criterium (delrin) rear derailleur: an SX-610 (short cage, like the criterium) or SX-410 Rally (long cage). I think there may be an SX-410 short cage too.

John E

I worked at a Peugeot/Nishiki dealership in 1972-74, and I owned a 1980 PKN-10 (successor to the PR-10).

I can confirm that original equipment on the ca. 1970 PR-10 was a Stronglight crank with 52-45 chainrings, knee-busting 5-speed 14-15-17-19-21 Atom or Cyclo freewheel, and tubular tires on Normandy high flange hubs. These are delightful bikes to ride, and not much different than the renowned PX-10.

I put an ulta-6 Shimano freewheel on my 1970 UO-8, which required only about 2-3mm of spreading from the original 120, so I didn't even bother to cold-set the rear triangle.

cdeasuk

Madpogue, you say it's possible the hub spacing has been played with to put the 6 speed on there, didn't know that was possible, the rear triangle definitely doesn't sproing... So I'm now wondering if that's what's happened but they haven't re-centred the rim, it's always had to be slightly centred via the axle when tightening the wheel in, if it's slotted straight into the back of the drop outs the wheel is quite off, just a few mm from rubbing of the NDS chain stay. I'm adding photos to the album showing the position: bikeforums.net/g/album/18804792

Tbh, I'd be happy to take this down to a 5 speed so maybe that is something I should look at swapping out anyway.

As for the possibility of changing the delrin derailleurs, there's apparently a rear Simplex SLJ 5500 on ebay here for £28 which seems alright: ebay.co.uk/itm/193605435529
Will look into the other options suggested, thanks! Otherwise might just ride these out as they still seem alright and shifting just fine for now. I should add, this bike may be a bit dirty and chipped, but actually wasn't used in almost 30 years, so they might still have some life in them.

Bikemig, need to look into the wheels some more, not sure what shipping to the UK would be...

Thanks again for the help everyone!

bikemig 

i didn’t know you were in the UK so not worth the shipping. Used quality wheels are easy enough to find.

Narhay

That simplex with the claw wont work. You need the direct mount version without the claw hanger.

cdeasuk

Ahh okay, thanks. Was just looking into that, the derailleur hangers link bikemig sent is being blocked by my provider for being unsafe haha

bikemig 

With simplex derailleurs, the front and the rear present somewhat different problems.

(1) The delrin front simplex derailleurs tend to break over time. Some survive, most don't. It's easy to find a replacement since any FD with a 28.6 band will work. Ideally it will have a stop on the FD for the cable but there are alternative ways to run the cable if it lacks one. One small issue is that French tubes are a bit narrower (28.0 rather than 28.6). You can run a bit of electrical tape underneath the clamp if you are worried about this.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/velos.html

(2) The rear derailleur is more of a challenge on an old simplex drop out. The red clover site I linked to has a good discussion. If you decide to go with a simplex replacement, you need a simplex derailleur designed to work on the drop out. The simplex RDs that you see on a hanger likely won't work. This is a very good discussion of the options:
Derailleurs that fit Simplex Dropouts?

The alternatives include a derailleur on a hanger (get a suntour) or modify the drop out (that is discussed in the link above).

madpogue 

Pic reference:





Without removing the freewheel and looking at the axle spacers it's impossible to say for sure, but yes, it looks like they re-arranged spacers/washers to accomodate the 6-speed freewheel, but didn't re-dish the rim. Even with the re-spacing, look how close that DS locknut is to the smallest cog; it must be about the thickness of a coat of paint away from the chainstay when it's installed.

Well, as others have said, you'll probably be happier with a set of wheels with aluminum rims. If you get a 126-spaced wheel, you can use that MF-Z012 you have, and either cold set the rear triangle or just spread it whenever you install the wheel. If you wanted to revert to 5-speed, you could get a 120-spaced wheel and it would slip right in, but you'd need to source a 5-speed freewheel.

Charles Wahl

If one could add a SunTour derailleur with a hanger (ignoring the integral Simplex hanger), then why couldn't one use a Simplex 5500 derailleur on a hanger?