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Got an SBDU.... Crap SB8621 is cracked...

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Got an SBDU.... Crap SB8621 is cracked...

Old 08-12-20, 09:44 PM
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Got an SBDU.... Crap! SB8621 is cracked...

I'm sure a number of you have seen the all-red Raleigh SBDU frame for sale on Ebay for the last 6 months or so... Not particularly attractive or unique, not a 753, and not even built at Ilkeston, but it's an SB serial #!!! I have been looking at the thing for months trying to decide if it was worth it... Two days ago I came to the conclusion that I was in ($650 seemed reasonable). Anyway, I was notified today that the owner found a crack in the DS chainstay while packing it and it would need a chainstay replacement... Obviously this repair would devalue the frame. Is it even worth negotiating on? Is it now worthless?


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Old 08-12-20, 09:49 PM
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Plenty of fish in the sea of $650 frames that wouldn't need major repair and repaint. Save yourself the headache.
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Old 08-12-20, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles Wahl View Post
Plenty of fish in the sea of $650 frames that wouldn't need major repair and repaint. Save yourself the headache.
I hear ya! I am unfortunately a Raleigh fan, and have been reading old books and reading Neal McGowran musings... He even references this S/N as a possible SBDU end number (later proven false). $650 is a big commitment for a frame for me...

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Old 08-12-20, 10:58 PM
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...not sure I understand what you are asking. Are you asking what it ought to be sold for to you after the current owner has it repaired, or are you asking what it should bring as is, with you on the hook for the repair and repainting ? I can assure you that this frame just got a lot more expensive. Also, I don't understand why you assume a repair devalues the frame ? If that were the case, nobody would ever cough up the cash to have frames repaired in this way.

Ask in the frame builder's forum for some estimates on the cost of doing a stay replacement and repainting. I think it will help you decide.

The Yahoo list group for SBDU frames/bikes has stuff that comes up for sale by the members all the time. You should find it and join.
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Old 08-12-20, 11:05 PM
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...I bought this one over in Petaluma in rough mechanical shape for about $600-650 ten or fifteen years ago from someone who was tired of it.
The whole bike, complete with most of the components, but I had to rework the wheels. $650 is a lot of money for a frame only.

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Old 08-12-20, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
.
...not sure I understand what you are asking. Are you asking what it ought to be sold for to you after the current owner has it repaired, or are you asking what it should bring as is, with you on the hook for the repair and repainting ? I can assure you that this frame just got a lot more expensive. Also, I don't understand why you assume a repair devalues the frame ? If that were the case, nobody would ever cough up the cash to have frames repaired in this way.

Ask in the frame builder's forum for some estimates on the cost of doing a stay replacement and repainting. I think it will help you decide.

The Yahoo list group for SBDU frames/bikes has stuff that comes up for sale by the members all the time. You should find it and join.
I was trying to decide if it was even worth trying to purchase at a reduced price. I would assume you would agree a non-damaged original frame was different than the same frame damaged and then repaired and repainted. I thought the Yahoo Groups were shut down, no?
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Old 08-12-20, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
.
...I bought this one over in Petaluma in rough mechanical shape for about $600-650 ten or fifteen years ago from someone who was tired of it.
The whole bike, complete with most of the components, but I had to rework the wheels. $650 is a lot of money for a frame only.

Beautiful!
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Old 08-12-20, 11:35 PM
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I've often wondered whether some low-number hand-built frames - like this basic 531c SBDU - have a marginally higher potential for failure than mass-produced frames built by folks cranking them out every day; framebuilders who didn't even have to think about reading the flux, moving the torch, and moving on to the next joint. Not to mention whether the lug thinning and potentially less filler material on these fancy machines might work against their longevity in comparison to upper mid-range bikes (e.g., the Japanese-built Raleigh USA models below this SBDU at the time).

At any rate, it is a 531c SBDU frameset straight out of the 1986 catalog. Fancy serial or not, the solid bright red and '86 Raleigh graphics are as loud as they are generic. You couldn't make a SBDU more boring if you tried. An '84 Grand Prix looks higher end from a distance just because of the chrome fork and rear triangle, and I bet you couldn't tell one from the other in the saddle.

Sure, the Grand Prix will be heavier...if you're carrying your wallet, post-purchase.

With that chainstay crack, how about $6.50? Sure, a framebuilder could fix that, and another $175 later, a competent painter could probably blend it really well. And you'd still be left with a gaping chasm in your wallet that would have bought you a more interesting machine...

...the kind of interesting machine that has an SB serial, Prugnat lugs, and those exciting "T.I. RALEIGH" "TEAM" decals that even make Record gas pipe look cool.

-Kurt
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Old 08-12-20, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
I've often wondered whether some low-number hand-built frames - like this basic 531c SBDU - have a marginally higher potential for failure than mass-produced frames built by folks cranking them out every day; framebuilders who didn't even have to think about reading the flux, moving the torch, and moving on to the next joint. Not to mention whether the lug thinning and potentially less filler material on these fancy machines might work against their longevity in comparison to upper mid-range bikes (e.g., the Japanese-built Raleigh USA models below this SBDU at the time).

At any rate, it is a 531c SBDU frameset straight out of the 1986 catalog. Fancy serial or not, the solid bright red and '86 Raleigh graphics are as loud as they are generic. You couldn't make a SBDU more boring if you tried. An '84 Grand Prix looks higher end from a distance just because of the chrome fork and rear triangle, and I bet you couldn't tell one from the other in the saddle.

Sure, the Grand Prix will be heavier...if you're carrying your wallet, post-purchase.

With that chainstay crack, how about $6.50? Sure, a framebuilder could fix that, and another $175 later, a competent painter could probably blend it really well. And you'd still be left with a gaping chasm in your wallet that would have bought you a more interesting machine...

...the kind of interesting machine that has an SB serial, Prugnat lugs, and those exciting "T.I. RALEIGH" "TEAM" decals that even make Record gas pipe look cool.

-Kurt
Yeah, for sure! I get wrapped up in Skunk Works aura pretty quickly, but the bespoke build and intended purpose absolutely do not equate to a higher quality product! I LOVE my Racing USA stuff.

p.s. I still lust after the history and mystique, I can't help it.
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Old 08-13-20, 12:22 AM
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Hard pass.
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Old 08-13-20, 02:07 AM
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Thatís an easy pass.

A hard pass is what I did a month ago.

At midnight I found an Ilkeston 753 frame in team colours delivered to my door for less than Ä250. I hovered over the BIN button but didnít pull the trigger. Turned off the computer and went to bed. It was gone when I got up the next morning.

The paint was in good condition but there was a dent in the top tube at the seat lug. Iíve waited 10 years to get one of these at a reasonable price. I can wait longer.



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Old 08-13-20, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by old_dreams View Post
The paint was in good condition but there was a dent in the top tube at the seat lug. Iíve waited 10 years to get one of these at a reasonable price. I can wait longer.
Ouch! That's one heck of a dent!!! Would you have repaired it?
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Old 08-13-20, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by La Brea Bike View Post
Ouch! That's one heck of a dent!!! Would you have repaired it?
On a 531 frame you might have been able to roll it out and possibly use some techniques to pull it out. I'm no frame repair expert. I know however that 753 is a different beast altogether. I did some quick googling and could find no accounts of dent repair on 753 so that is ultimately why I let it go. I calculated that even if the frame was too costly to repair I could still recover a lot of the cost by selling on the front fork but still I let it go.

There are no guys near me that could replace a top tube so I'd be looking at several hundred for shipping, tube replacement + repaint.

So if money matters to you I would get my money back. These bikes do come up but there are a lot of eyes watching. You need a bit of luck and a lot of patience.

I did manage to get my hands on an Ilkeston 531P recently for a reasonable outlay. It's not a team colours edition but it has wonderful paint, chrome and came with dura ace.

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Old 08-13-20, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by old_dreams View Post
So if money matters to you I would get my money back. These bikes do come up but there are a lot of eyes watching. You need a bit of luck and a lot of patience.
Thanks, yeah it does. I am trying to get a refund.
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Old 08-13-20, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by old_dreams View Post
On a 531 frame you might have been able to roll it out and possibly use some techniques to pull it out. I'm no frame repair expert. I know however that 753 is a different beast altogether.
Heat treated. It would have likely cracked. This is what happens if you try to straighten 753 (coincidentally, this is an SBDU Team Pro):





Mind, this is both a lot more damage + the cold setting done here was done purely for curiosity's sake.

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Old 08-13-20, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by La Brea Bike View Post
I was trying to decide if it was even worth trying to purchase at a reduced price. I would assume you would agree a non-damaged original frame was different than the same frame damaged and then repaired and repainted. I thought the Yahoo Groups were shut down, no?
...they switched over to a new format/hosting site/something. I still get updated e-mails from them in my Yahoo mail account. Try RaleighTeamPros@groups.io
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Old 08-13-20, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
...they switched over to a new format/hosting site/something. I still get updated e-mails from them in my Yahoo mail account. Try RaleighTeamPros@groups.io
I was able to log in! Awesome! Thanks for tip!
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Old 08-13-20, 11:21 AM
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SBDU frames don't grown on trees, so I think it boils down for how desperate your are to find one in your size, how much less you think it might be worth with a repair/respray, and how much you want to have into it.

Franklin Frames has stay replacements priced up to $95, and single-color paint w/clear starting at $240. I had him repaint a frame of mine a few years back, at which time he told me his website pricing was out of date and he'd be raising them. Looks like he didn't change the web pricing, but even if he's charging a bit more, say $150/stay and $300/paint, for around $500 you could possibly get the frame repaired and repainted by an established builder/painter. If you were willing to pay $650, for a frame that wasn't mega-clean to start with, IMHO if you could get it cheap enough, it might be worth it to you. Cheap meaning not more than $100-$150.

Yeah, you could luck into another SBDU in that size for $400, but you'd have to luck into it. I've been watching them on ebay, and you're at $800+ for clean tall one, and $1,000+ is more likely. Nobody on the SBDU yahoo list is selling 'em cheap.

Personal judgement call in my book. I'm not desperate enough for one at the moment, but if I were, I'd seriously consider it. Of course the seller would have to be willing to let it go cheap.

I realize OP has already requested a refund, just thought I'd throw some numbers and thoughts out.
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Old 08-14-20, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by pcb View Post
SBDU frames don't grown on trees, so I think it boils down for how desperate your are to find one in your size, how much less you think it might be worth with a repair/respray, and how much you want to have into it.

Franklin Frames has stay replacements priced up to $95, and single-color paint w/clear starting at $240. I had him repaint a frame of mine a few years back, at which time he told me his website pricing was out of date and he'd be raising them. Looks like he didn't change the web pricing, but even if he's charging a bit more, say $150/stay and $300/paint, for around $500 you could possibly get the frame repaired and repainted by an established builder/painter. If you were willing to pay $650, for a frame that wasn't mega-clean to start with, IMHO if you could get it cheap enough, it might be worth it to you. Cheap meaning not more than $100-$150.

Yeah, you could luck into another SBDU in that size for $400, but you'd have to luck into it. I've been watching them on ebay, and you're at $800+ for clean tall one, and $1,000+ is more likely. Nobody on the SBDU yahoo list is selling 'em cheap.

Personal judgement call in my book. I'm not desperate enough for one at the moment, but if I were, I'd seriously consider it. Of course the seller would have to be willing to let it go cheap.

I realize OP has already requested a refund, just thought I'd throw some numbers and thoughts out.
I think the main things that killed it were that it wasn't a Ilkston built frame, and the paint scheme is uninspired (boring) to say the least. My Ultimate would be a Team livery mid-80's in 56cm / 57cm range. I see a few on Ebay from time to time. It would, however take a lot of fiscal pain (and the courage to tell my wife I dropped $2k on a bicycle frame) to get that done. The net result would be N- I don't know how much of my stable.
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Old 08-14-20, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by La Brea Bike View Post
I was able to log in! Awesome! Thanks for tip!
Is the seller going to repair and repaint...mostlikley not because he will not get his money back deduct the cost for R/RP and non-original/repaired frame and go from there.
Time for "hard" negotiation....looks like a bike person so maybe the seller will understand, if not move on.
Ben

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Old 08-14-20, 05:39 PM
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I hear ya, all-around it wasn't a perfect fit to start with.

Of course, if you did the repair and got it repainted, nothing says you couldn't have it painted in your favorite team livery. As long as you don't try to misrepresent it, no harm no foul in my book.

The owner is a bike guy, I "know" him from another/other forum/s, so he has the capacity to be understanding of the issues involved. But I don't know him, without quotes, so I can't vouch for him.

I did drool over this for a while, but it's a little small for me, and I wasn't thrilled with the dent under the non-drive chainstay, and I'm not particularly on the hunt for SBDU. Mind you, if I can find one in 60-62cm in nice shape for not a ton o' money, I'm drooling.

Originally Posted by La Brea Bike View Post
I think the main things that killed it were that it wasn't a Ilkston built frame, and the paint scheme is uninspired (boring) to say the least. My Ultimate would be a Team livery mid-80's in 56cm / 57cm range. I see a few on Ebay from time to time. It would, however take a lot of fiscal pain (and the courage to tell my wife I dropped $2k on a bicycle frame) to get that done. The net result would be N- I don't know how much of my stable.
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Old 08-14-20, 07:50 PM
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This my daughter's '84 Team Pro (SBDU). I paid WAY less for the complete bike than what they are asking for a cracked frame. I don't think the last of the SBDU bikes are as in demand or valued as the earlier ones. I would pass on the frame.

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Old 08-14-20, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by La Brea Bike View Post
I was trying to decide if it was even worth trying to purchase at a reduced price. I would assume you would agree a non-damaged original frame was different than the same frame damaged and then repaired and repainted. I thought the Yahoo Groups were shut down, no?
Honest seller.
Unwind the deal.
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Old 08-14-20, 11:04 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by repechage View Post
Honest seller.
Unwind the deal.
Done! Just waiting for the money to come back.
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Old 08-15-20, 02:31 AM
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Originally Posted by La Brea Bike View Post
My Ultimate would be a Team livery mid-80's in 56cm / 57cm range.
If you're talking about the red/yellow/black "traditional" team colors, that paint scheme lasted until the end of 1983, which I wouldn't necessarily call mid-'80s. In '84 the team colors were Panasonic's white/blue. I got lucky and found an all-original 1982 753 frame in team colors for a semi-reasonable price locally, so all hope is not lost. But do your homework because there was a fake on ebay last year for well over $1k.
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