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front derailleur help

Old 09-01-20, 01:16 PM
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Ger482
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front derailleur help

I need to get my front crank about an 1/8 of an inch tighter.after riding several times and tightening it is still out.I was going to take a couple of 2bye 4s' one on each side and tap it down with a hammer. thought I would check in here first for s better idea. thanks.
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Old 09-01-20, 01:31 PM
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What's the history of using that crank on that spindle? The assumption from the pic is it's the wrong spindle for the crank. Way too long. You don't use a wooden press to mount a crankset. And you don't retighten a crank on a spindle after it's mounted (other than once after a test ride). Learn about correct chainline and spindle length for that particular crankset.
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Old 09-01-20, 01:31 PM
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The hammer is not the tool for this! Unless it is really big. Like a BFH.
Did you install the bottom bracket? And the Crankset?
Tightening the crank bolt is all that is needed if your cranks taper matches the bottom bracket spindle and the spindle is the correct length.
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Old 09-01-20, 01:44 PM
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Wrong bb or the wrong way around.
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Old 09-01-20, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by blamester View Post
Wrong bb or the wrong way around.
This too long or asymmetrical and the spindle needs to be flipped over.
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Old 09-01-20, 02:32 PM
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it's the original spindle.You could be right that it should be the opposite way. I thought the longer side went with the crank side?
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Old 09-01-20, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Ger482 View Post
it's the original spindle.
Did the bike originally come with a different crank?
You could be right that it should be the opposite way. I thought the longer side went with the crank side?
Yes, this is normally the case: longer side is on the right (drive) side. I think you did everything right, but it just looks too long, which is unfortunate. You don't want to push the crank any farther onto the taper than it wants to go. It will either be impossible, or it will damage things.
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Old 09-01-20, 03:05 PM
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FWIW in my experience when I am thinking about reaching for a hammer while working on bikes its time to back slowly away from the bike grab an adult beverage sit quietly and do some thinking. Reaching out to the forum was a good plan.
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Old 09-01-20, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Ger482 View Post
it's the original spindle.
Is it also the original crank?
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Old 09-01-20, 03:28 PM
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A good number of vintage ten-speeds came with what I would call a much-too-long bottom bracket spindle, presumably so that the bike could be ridden noise-free with both shift levers de-tensioned for whatever reason. Sometimes the rider had never actually learned the technique of derailer shifting, and sometimes the wing-screw(s) came loose but the rider kept on riding, so the longer spindle kept the chain from grinding noisily against the inside of the big ring.

It was all too common seeing novice riders doing just that, riding with both shift levers left full-forward, because that was the most stable arrangement in terms of the chain not skipping due to the derailer not being accurately centered under the driven cog/sprocket. The advent of indexed shifting put a dent in that practice, so spindle lengths moderated over time on the bikes intended for sale to novices.

Recalling one seasoned and strong local rider, years ago, coming back a couple of months after I sold her a bike, her having literally broken the smallest freewheel sprocket due to toughing out all of the steep hills here in the 42-14t gear combo!
I taught her how to shift for up- and down-hill roads after fixing the freewheel, and her and I both still remember what a thrill it was for her learning to shift a road bike.

All that said, likely the bike in question came with a different, possibly triple-ringed crankset that used a much longer spindle(???).

Perhaps also a different crankset having an ISO taper is installed on that long JIS-taper bb spindle. The taper difference alone will leave the crankarm 2-3mm further out.
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Old 09-01-20, 03:29 PM
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yes original crank and yes i'm having several beers and will attack the problem tomorrow . it's not a big issue thanks guys .....Scott
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Old 09-01-20, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Ger482 View Post
yes original crank and yes i'm having several beers and will attack the problem tomorrow . it's not a big issue thanks guys .....Scott
Beer is good(!), and I always start with the 4# hammer.

EDIT: Getting an early start on Taco Tuesday, thanks for the remind!!!

Eh, when you sober up, try sighting rearward along each side of the (hopefully clean) chainrings of the crankset, back to the center of the cassette.
Roughly centered is good!

Last edited by dddd; 09-01-20 at 03:35 PM.
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Old 09-03-20, 01:04 PM
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I bought a crank puller and flipped the crank around.seem O.K. now.the long side was on the crank side now I will remember that it is not always that way..

before flipping it around.
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Old 09-03-20, 02:10 PM
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That's the wrong spindle for a double. Get the correct spindle. Simply turning it around -- if it works on the ds -- will throw off the nds ... and look kludged. New cartridge bbs are not expensive.
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Old 09-03-20, 02:33 PM
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that is the original spindle ,it was used for 50 years without issue.how can it be the wrong one..very strange?
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Old 09-03-20, 05:13 PM
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Every asymmetrical bb I've ever used was longer on the ds.

How long is the spindle, what model/year crankset, and what model/year bicycle?
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Old 09-03-20, 06:05 PM
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here are the measurements all is good here is my thread

My old Claud Butler



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Old 09-03-20, 06:25 PM
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From reading that thread, you're at least the second owner. You said the guy you bought it from tore the bike up or something. How do you know the crankset and bb are original? Then there's this:

Originally Posted by Ger482 View Post
I have to tighten the crank down to line it up.a couple more rides should seat it.
You're really not supposed to retighten arms on their spindles after doing so only once after a very quick test ride.
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Old 09-03-20, 06:41 PM
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OP, if you force the crank on, especially if you ride and re-tighten a few times, the crank will crack from the corners of the square taper out. People have been doing that experiment forever. Any sophomore engineering student will correctly predict the outcome, He just cannot give you a time frame.

If I were in your shoes, I would measure the chainline after mounting with a reasonable amount of effort. I don't have the torque numbers in front of me but they can be found on Sheldon Brown's site and elsewhere. No special wrenches are needed for those of us with normal strength. Chainline is the distance midway between chainrings to center line of bike. Measure to seattube and add 14.5 mm for half the seattube. 42 mm is standard, I'm guessing that you have more (just by eyeball). Yes, the longer size of your spindle should be driveside. I'm guessing the crankset got changed or the wrong spndle got grabbed somewhere along the line.

With your measured chainline, you can now see what spindle length you really want. Remove the cranks. Measure end to end on the spindle. Also measure end to BB shell edge on both sides. The difference between the two end of shell distances is the asymmetry of the spindle. Last important factor and the one I cannot help you with is the spindle taper. It is usually 2 degrees but the common European (ISO) and Japanese (JIS) versions use different basic thicknesses. You need to get that right. (It won't hurt the crank to be wrong. It will just sit way off!) If this bike is old (pre-1980s) you could have yet another standard, Some old spindles used 3 degrees, quite different. Seek out C & V gurus.

If you are quite certain you have the common 2 degree taper, you can simple buy a long (triple) stock $30 Shimano bottom bracket with your bike' threads (English, French, Swiss or Italian). Mount the cranks and measure the chain to centerline. Calculate based on that what you need. Buy the right one.

This is a quick and dirty BB/crankset lesson. Not proofread yet so you old-timers, step in if you see an oops! Oh, and if you come up with the ISO/JIS but find there is no bottom bracket and spindle out there that fit's your bill, there is another option. Expensive, but - Phil Wood can make any length, either taper and any asymmetry you could possibly want; And it will outlive you.

Ben
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Old 09-03-20, 07:26 PM
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FWIW, Nut fixed cranks , solid spindles , were on cheaper bikes , bolt fixed crank arms have a washer behind the bolt head
to not chew into the crank arm, which the nuts do to resist unscrewing.

bolts thread into spindles that are hollow down the center ..
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Old 09-03-20, 08:00 PM
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guys it's all fine now
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Old 09-04-20, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Ger482 View Post
that is the original spindle ,it was used for 50 years without issue.how can it be the wrong one..very strange?
It's possible that whoever built up the bike at the factory or shop used the wrong spindle. That kind of stuff happens. But it's more likely that a previous owner put in the wrong spindle. That threaded spindle design suggest that it's of Japanese manufacture and less that 50 years old. It's not a Japanese bike, correct? I don't recall your mentioning what kind of bike it is.

In short, it's true, the spindle you have in there now is technically the wrong one. In a perfect world, the long end would be on the drive side. But that doesn't mean you can't just ignore the flipped spindle and keep riding it the way it is. Many of us here are a little obsessive-compulsive about using the correct parts, so we take that kind of stuff to heart.
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Old 09-04-20, 02:09 PM
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here is the link of my rebuild. the bike was ridden thousands of miles in my younger days when I road for a Montreal bike shop Baggio.

My old Claud Butler
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Old 09-04-20, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Ger482 View Post
guys it's all fine now
So what changed? If you come and ask a lot of questions, and then question the answers, then it's only polite to the forum to follow up with what's right now that was wrong previously, and what made this happen.
Offhand, your photo showing the bare spindle looks like it's too long to me. A double chainring spindle that's asymmetrical usually has a "shell to end" difference that's on the order of 3 or 4 mm, not 7 or 8. And the photo of the crank in place looks like a lot of spindle showing behind the crank, too.
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Old 09-04-20, 06:11 PM
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I didn't question any answers Charles Wahl.. settle down and relax. ..it's just a bike forum.
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