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SARONNI italy bicycle reynolds 531 campagnolo and fausto coppi selle

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SARONNI italy bicycle reynolds 531 campagnolo and fausto coppi selle

Old 10-03-20, 05:30 AM
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Terzot
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SARONNI italy bicycle reynolds 531 campagnolo and fausto coppi selle

Hey guys,
I would like to get some info about my bike. It's SARONNI bicycle with two reynolds 531 stickers - one on the frame and two on the fork. I bought with unfortunetly new wheels and new derailleur set. ( removed it before taking photos ). Front and rear hook are brev campagnolo. I haven't cleaned anything so far.
So my questions are:
1) Can you tell me somthing more about company? Maybe year of the production?
2) What derailleur set should i be looking for?
3) What wheels should i be looking for?
4) Any info about my saddle? What i've found out that it can be worth some money
5) What's your opinion about bike? Should i renovate it, or it's nothing special and should i sell parts separetly.
Thanks for any info!!!!
It is equiped with:
- campagnolo GS crankset
- campagnolo gran sport pedals
- cinneli handlebar and stem
- modolo sport brakes
- zefal pump (made in france)
- fausto coppi selle numer 162









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Old 10-03-20, 06:44 AM
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Thereís a few things Iím struggling with here.

Colnago made Saronni frames, but there is nothing about that frame that says Colnago.

As far as Iím aware there wasnít any 531 Saronnis...I doubt thereís any 531 Colnagos, either.

The frame looks to be from the 70ís, but Saronnis werenít produced until the early 80ís.

Saronnis had pantoíd seat stay caps and fork crown, neither of which are on this frame.

I believe Saronnis had two cable guides on the top tube, there isnít any here.

The decals donít look like any Saronni Iíve seen, and usually Giuseppeís handsome face is on the head tube. (Made Italy? Hmmm...)

Iím not sure Saronnis were ever any other colour than red.

So IMO someone has put Saronni decals on what looks to be a nice 531 frame. Not a Colnago or Saronni expert though, so happy to be corrected if Iím wrong.

Last edited by P!N20; 10-03-20 at 06:53 AM.
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Old 10-03-20, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by P!N20 View Post
Thereís a few things Iím struggling with here.

Colnago made Saronni frames, but there is nothing about that frame that says Colnago.

As far as Iím aware there wasnít any 531 Saronnis...I doubt thereís any 531 Colnagos, either.

The frame looks to be from the 70ís, but Saronnis werenít produced until the early 80ís.

Saronnis had pantoíd seat stay caps and fork crown, neither of which are on this frame.

I believe Saronnis had two cable guides on the top tube, there isnít any here.

The decals donít look like any Saronni Iíve seen, and usually Giuseppeís handsome face is on the head tube.

So IMO someone has put Saronni decals on what looks to be a nice 531 frame.
hmm there are some special pieces, which might help you define the bike:




what could those symbols mean?
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Old 10-03-20, 06:57 AM
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Paging @MauriceMoss
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Old 10-03-20, 07:35 AM
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According to a 531 decal timeline found at Lloyd's, the fork blade decal shown was only used up to 1973, while the seat tube decal is from 1973 to 1977.



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Old 10-03-20, 09:25 AM
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Bottom of the bike
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Old 10-03-20, 11:09 AM
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hmmm, early frame for sure and with that BB shell: Torresini made (perhaps)? Unsure about if legit 531 but it's certainly not out of the question (other Italian builders used it, but not "many"). The lug cut-outs and details don't look super well-finished but would not surprise me if this might be one of the very first contract-built "authorized" frames to cash in on Beppe's fame, before Colnago got into that (bigger-time).
Then again, could be a "fake" re-decaled. Those are Modolo mid-grade calipers I have not heard of before ("Speedy" yes but not "Sporting") and not that saddle before either but looks like a variation on the San Marco "Rolls".

Last edited by unworthy1; 10-03-20 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 10-03-20, 11:18 AM
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-----

certainly appears to hail from the 1974-75 time whatever it be...

see nothing to suggest Torresini-ness


-----

Last edited by juvela; 10-03-20 at 11:52 AM. Reason: addition
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Old 10-03-20, 11:29 AM
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I concur that the subject bicycle appears to pre-date the Saronni that typically surface. However, it's not necessarily a fake. It wouldn't be the first time we've seen completely different Italian brands with the same name. There could have been a completely independent Saronni brand prior to Giuseppe becoming a star cyclist and launching his own brand. That might explain the difference in decals and apparent age.

Also, until the mid-1970s, Columbus' reputation wasn't as prestigious as Reynolds. Some pre-boom Italian marques used Reynolds, such as Frejus and Legnano. Post boom, some Italian companies such as Cinelli and Masi continued to offer models with Reynolds. While uncommon, Reynolds on 1970s Italian frames is not unknown.

The frame appears to be high grade, having Campagnolo dropouts and tangs on the fork blades and brake bridge, even if some of the workmanship seems a bit rough. The combination of bottle bosses but no shift lever bosses or brake tunnels is interesting. Assuming the combination is OEM, that plus the long dropouts, would have me placing it mid-1970s, which might also explain the mixed generation Reynolds decals.

It would be interesting to know:
1. if the BB shell is Italian threaded
2. the seat post diameter
3. if the steering column has 5 helical ridges, on the inside, at the bottom
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Old 10-03-20, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
I concur that the subject bicycle appears to pre-date the Saronni that typically surface. However, it's not necessarily a fake. It wouldn't be the first time we've seen completely different Italian brands with the same name. There could have been a completely independent Saronni brand prior to Giuseppe becoming a star cyclist and launching his own brand. That might explain the difference in decals and apparent age.

Also, until the mid-1970s, Columbus' reputation wasn't as prestigious as Reynolds. Some pre-boom Italian marques used Reynolds, such as Frejus and Legnano. Post boom, some Italian companies such as Cinelli and Masi continued to offer models with Reynolds. While uncommon, Reynolds on 1970s Italian frames is not unknown.

The frame appears to be high grade, having Campagnolo dropouts and tangs on the fork blades and brake bridge, even if some of the workmanship seems a bit rough. The combination of bottle bosses but no shift lever bosses or brake tunnels is interesting. Assuming the combination is OEM, that plus the long dropouts, would have me placing it mid-1970s, which might also explain the mixed generation Reynolds decals.

It would be interesting to know:
1. if the BB shell is Italian threaded
2. the seat post diameter
3. if the steering column has 5 helical ridges, on the inside, at the bottom
Thanks for your answer!. So answering your questions:
1. BB is italian threaded
2. The seat post diamater is 26.4 .
3. Don't really know what should i check / measure. Do i need to take off my handlebar/headset?
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Old 10-03-20, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Terzot View Post
Thanks for your answer!. So answering your questions:

1. BB is italian threaded

2. The seat post diamater is 26.4 .

3. Don't really know what should i check / measure. Do i need to take off my handlebar/headset?
.

So, it is ttalian built but the Reynolds decals are suspect. 531DB, as indicated by the decal, would typical uses a 27.0-27.2mm post on an Italian frame, as they used imperial standard tubing with a 28.6mm outer diameter. However, metric 531DB would use 26.4mm so you should verify the outside diameter of the seat tube, just to be sure, even though it would be highly unusual on an Italian frame. Metric seat tubes have a 28.0mm outer diameter.

Assuming imperial tubing, a 26.4mm post is quite small for the era. That's borderline for a lightweight hi-tensile steel. I wouldn't expect the builder to be putting effort into features like reinforcing tangs at that level. So, I should also ask if the post is the correct size (i.e when the binder bolt is tightened, is the cinch in the back of the seat tube slot parallel or close to parallel? Or is it notably pinched at the top?)

Here's what you are looking for the in the steering column. Just take off the front wheel and look up, into the steering column. However, based on the seat post size, I doubt you'll find the ridges.
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Old 10-03-20, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
.

So, it is ttalian built but the Reynolds decals are suspect. 531DB, as indicated by the decal, would typical uses a 27.0-27.2mm post on an Italian frame, as they used imperial standard tubing with a 28.6mm outer diameter. However, metric 531DB would use 26.4mm so you should verify the outside diameter of the seat tube, just to be sure, even though it would be highly unusual on an Italian frame. Metric seat tubes have a 28.0mm outer diameter.

Assuming imperial tubing, a 26.4mm post is quite small for the era. That's borderline for a lightweight hi-tensile steel. I wouldn't expect the builder to be putting effort into features like reinforcing tangs at that level. So, I should also ask if the post is the correct size (i.e when the binder bolt is tightened, is the cinch in the back of the seat tube slot parallel or close to parallel? Or is it notably pinched at the top?)

Here's what you are looking for the in the steering column. Just take off the front wheel and look up, into the steering column. However, based on the seat post size, I doubt you'll find the ridges.
So:
1) about 5 ridges - as you can see on the photo belowed there are 5 ridges:

2) about seat post, i've measured as in the photo belowed:

also there is a number on my seatpost: 26.4

and about how it looks like when i strightend the bolt:

hope it's going to help you!
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Old 10-03-20, 02:18 PM
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Unfortunatly i don't habe caliper, but from my eye i can see there is around 28mm outer seatpost diamater
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Old 10-03-20, 03:02 PM
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That cinch slot is severely pinched. The correct size post is significantly larger, by about 0.5mm.

The inside of the steering column is severely corroded, which is fairly typical, given the age. However, you can see the base of the five ridges, suggesting that it's a Columbus steering column. Reynolds steering columns did not employ stiffening ridges. Prior to 1984, the only Columbus road tubesets that used this steering column were Columbus SL and Columbus SP. They used 27.2mm and 27.0mm posts respectively. If you remove the fork (you should overhaul the headset anyways), you should find the Columbus dove logo stamped into the outside of the steering column. Columbus SL/SP is what would normally be expected on frame of this nationality, era and feature level. Given the small frame size, Columbus SL would be typical.

Based on this, it is almost certainly imperial tubing with the seat post having a 28.6mm outer diameter. If you want, this can be verified with reasonable accuracy without a precision caliper.

1. Cut a strip of paper, approximately 1cm x 10cm.
2, Wrap it tightly around the outside of a clean, unmarred section on the frame's seat tube, so that it overlaps itself with the top and bottom edges aligned.
3. Mark where it overlaps itself with a very sharp pencil.
4. Remove the paper and measure the longer portion, from the end to the mark. This will be the outside circumference of the seat tube.
5. Repeat the process to ensure accuracy.

Using this method you should be able to easily measure the outside circumference to within 0.5mm of its actual value. Divide the circumference by pi (3.14) to calculate the outer diameter. The result should be accurate to within 0.16mm.

Last edited by T-Mar; 10-03-20 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 10-03-20, 09:56 PM
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THIS is getting interesting thanks to T-Mar getting into it, I'm subscribing!
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Old 10-03-20, 10:14 PM
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Seatpost bolts like that give the inexperienced the misguided courage to use a long open ended wrench on the nut, resulting in false security of a poorly fitting seatpost. A short allen wrench provides the proper torque.
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Old 10-03-20, 11:42 PM
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The frame is an early 70ies Torpado build. Typical Torpado lug and bb shell cut outs.
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Old 10-04-20, 02:49 AM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
That cinch slot is severely pinched. The correct size post is significantly larger, by about 0.5mm.

The inside of the steering column is severely corroded, which is fairly typical, given the age. However, you can see the base of the five ridges, suggesting that it's a Columbus steering column. Reynolds steering columns did not employ stiffening ridges. Prior to 1984, the only Columbus road tubesets that used this steering column were Columbus SL and Columbus SP. They used 27.2mm and 27.0mm posts respectively. If you remove the fork (you should overhaul the headset anyways), you should find the Columbus dove logo stamped into the outside of the steering column. Columbus SL/SP is what would normally be expected on frame of this nationality, era and feature level. Given the small frame size, Columbus SL would be typical.

Based on this, it is almost certainly imperial tubing with the seat post having a 28.6mm outer diameter. If you want, this can be verified with reasonable accuracy without a precision caliper.

1. Cut a strip of paper, approximately 1cm x 10cm.
2, Wrap it tightly around the outside of a clean, unmarred section on the frame's seat tube, so that it overlaps itself with the top and bottom edges aligned.
3. Mark where it overlaps itself with a very sharp pencil.
4. Remove the paper and measure the longer portion, from the end to the mark. This will be the outside circumference of the seat tube.
5. Repeat the process to ensure accuracy.

Using this method you should be able to easily measure the outside circumference to within 0.5mm of its actual value. Divide the circumference by pi (3.14) to calculate the outer diameter. The result should be accurate to within 0.16mm.
so:
1) the circuit of the seattube is around 9.05-9.10 cm. So it gives around 2.88 -2.9 cm of a seatpost diamater.
2) about the fork, i've removed the headset and fork, and here are the labels on fork:

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Old 10-04-20, 02:51 AM
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53 label is also given near the BB
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Old 10-04-20, 04:38 AM
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I'd be willing to bet its another Saronni brand, the decals look legit but nothing like the Colnago made Saronni's.
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Old 10-04-20, 06:06 AM
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@Terzot Take that measurement again but when the paper is overlapped, draw a line on the overlap so that both ends are marked. Then measure the flat piece of paper between the lines. The results are unexpected for either Columbus or Reynolds, IIANM (If I Am Not Mistaken). Columbus SL had a seat tube of 25mm which yields a circumference of 78.5mm. Paint and decals would not make up the difference to get to 90.5 or a dia. of 28.82.
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Old 10-04-20, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by SJX426 View Post
@Terzot Take that measurement again but when the paper is overlapped, draw a line on the overlap so that both ends are marked. Then measure the flat piece of paper between the lines. The results are unexpected for either Columbus or Reynolds, IIANM (If I Am Not Mistaken). Columbus SL had a seat tube of 25mm which yields a circumference of 78.5mm. Paint and decals would not make up the difference to get to 90.5 or a dia. of 28.82.
So look at the video in the link belowed:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?...2tydLnJQOq1K5P
What am i doing wrong?
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Old 10-04-20, 08:09 AM
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Nothing is wrong. 90.5 / pi is 28.8mm. Subtract about .2mm for paint which gives 28.6mm. 28.6 - 1.4 (wall thickness) = 27.2.

That seat cluster is severely pinched. It must be carefully pried open. I'd recommend getting it chased with a proper seat tube reamer afterwards, to remove and residual distortion.

Reynolds in Italian bikes is not at all unheard of. As mentioned, there was a time when some viewed it as more prestigious than Columbus. It's a nice 1970s Italian racing bike. I can't tell you what you should do with it. Ride it?

Correct derailleurs would be Campagnolo NR or GS. I'm guessing this bike may have been built up from a frame by a racer. Pretty typical of real race bikes.
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Old 10-04-20, 08:41 AM
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You're not doing anything wrong. That measurement is just a hair over 90mm. It's far closer to 90.0mm than 90.5mm.The line is pretty thick and the measurement point is on the inside edge, where the overlap would have been. I judge it at ~90.1mm, which gives a 28.69mm diameter. That's close enough to 28.6mm to state definitively that it's an imperial standard seat tube. A 28.0mm metric standard tube would have a circumference of 87.9mm and the measurement is nowhere near that.

Torresini did use the diamond cutouts for the higher end models, so they would be the leading candidate for manufacturer. As for it being the Saronni brand established by the pro cyclist, it seems too early. He didn't turn pro until 1977 and didn't have the marketability until after he won the 1979 Giro d'Italia on a Bottecchia for the SCIC team. At that point, Ernesto Colnago became interested, orchestrating a new sponsorship deal for Saronni's team with GIS Gelati and providing them with Colnago bicycles for the 1980 season. Saronni became Colnago's personal project and he set about promoting Saronni as the golden boy of Italian cycling, including manufacturing a line of Saronni bicycles. I don't believe there were any Saronni bicycles until after Colnago stepped into his life.

Later Saronni bicycles were manufactured by others than Colnago but the subject bicycle appears much older. Regardless, any Saronni I've seen that was manufactured after late 1982 have always borne the World Championship stripes to symbolize his 1982 victory at Goodwood. Unless there was a prior Saronni brand, the decals arer suspect. The Reynolds decals don't appear to be legitimate based on the apparent ridges in the steering column.
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Old 10-04-20, 10:27 AM
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Thanks for your answers. I'm a bit disappointed to be honest, hoped it could be saronni bike. Bought it for 100Ä, so i don't think i've lost money. I will try to buy original parts, but they are very expensive. Expecially wheels are pretty hard to find ...
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