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Grail bike acquired!

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Grail bike acquired!

Old 10-11-20, 07:12 PM
  #1  
Smokinapankake
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Grail bike acquired!

So after almost 30 years Iíve found myself staring down the barrel of an opportunity to acquire what has been one of my three grail bikes. But let me give a little backstory:
I grew up in West Valley City, a suburb of Salt Lake City. In 1988 I got turned on to mountain bikes and bought a Peugeot Tundra Express, a lower mid level MTB. In 1992 I was stationed at Fort Carson, Colorado cutting my teeth on actual mountain biking. This included reading Mountain Bike Action magazine voraciously.
The bikes were cool but I wasnít really inspired by anything until I saw a short article on Fishlips Cycles; specifically their Toxic Tuna model sporting an Action-Tec integrated fork. Fishlips was based in Murray, Utah, another suburb of SLC. I knew from that moment Iíd have one eventually. You could get a frame set with the aforementioned fork or you could get one designed for a regular RockShox. Unfortunately when I had the money for one Fishlips had gone out of business and Tunas were no more to be found. Between 1998 and 2001 I worked at a place called Radius Engineering, a process development firm that worked mostly in carbon fiber. I worked with a fellow named Renn DeWitt who claimed to have welded frames for Fishlips. I have no reason not to believe his claims as heíd shown me some Fishlips related industry paraphernalia....
A few days ago, I saw a ďcruiser bikeĒ listed on KSL Classifieds, a local online listing service much more popular than Craigslist. And there it was, what I believe to be a Toxic Tuna, non Action-Tec version! Seller claims to have bought it new and rode it all these years.
Anyway, enough talk. On to pictures:


Ritchey dropouts

Predecessor to the Ibis Hand Job?

Stress relief at the seatpost slot


Seat tube ovalized at the BB

No chainstay bridge

No serial number anywhere I could see





In my mind this frame ranks right up there with Fat City, Moots, Ritchey and Yeti back when John Parker was running the place and Frank Wadelton was welding. I think this frame was built around 1992 but no way to date it without a serial number or original components to date code.

Iím thinking a 952 XTR build on some Hadley hubs with a rigid suspension corrected fork for old school simplicity... but weíll see what turns up. Itís going to be a slow burn resto-mod as funds become available...

So any thoughts, comments or further information is always welcomed and appreciated, and let the planning begin!
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Old 10-11-20, 07:28 PM
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That's looks decidedly cool. Good for you!
Build away...
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Old 10-11-20, 07:49 PM
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Smokinapankake

Very cool, great find, good job!

Nothing productive to add but I would evaluate and consider some kind of attention for the groove in the BB shell.
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Old 10-11-20, 07:54 PM
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Howdy Neighbor, nice find! KSL has provided me quite a few sweet rides over the years.

Looking forward to seeing how you build this one up.
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Old 10-11-20, 08:11 PM
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Whatís the purpose of the little doodad on the back of the seat tube, just above the bb?
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Old 10-11-20, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by due ruote View Post
Whatís the purpose of the little doodad on the back of the seat tube, just above the bb?
Boss for a fender bolt is my guess. (No chainstay bridge.)
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Old 10-11-20, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by merziac View Post
Smokinapankake
consider some kind of attention for the groove in the BB shell.
That is a weird one. How would it happen accidentally?
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Old 10-11-20, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by clubman View Post
That is a weird one. How would it happen accidentally?
Looks like a front derailleur cable guide.
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Old 10-11-20, 09:25 PM
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Or the Panama Canal.
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Old 10-11-20, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Classtime View Post
Looks like a front derailleur cable guide.
On the driveside?

Seems like it wraps too far around and would be angled if it was from a cable.
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Old 10-11-20, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by clubman View Post
That is a weird one. How would it happen accidentally?
Looks like the crank was a triple at some point, may have been from chain drop, still seems too uniform and too far around.
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Old 10-11-20, 11:08 PM
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Great find! That will be a very nice build. And its pedigree that you shared makes it all the more interesting.
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Old 10-11-20, 11:20 PM
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Familiarity Breeds Contempt

Originally Posted by clubman View Post
That is a weird one. How would it happen accidentally?
I've seen this before, when someone used a pipe wrench to remove a seized BB cup and didn't realize it was scraping the paint off the BB shell.
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Old 10-11-20, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by machinist42 View Post
I've seen this before, when someone used a pipe wrench to remove a seized BB cup and didn't realize it was scraping the paint off the BB shell.
There's a lot more than paint missing here, and yes, sure could be from ham fisted butchery.
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Old 10-12-20, 04:16 AM
  #15  
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So the boss on the rear of the seat tube is a mount for a front derailleur cable pulley (missing). Cable comes down, wraps around the pulley, and back up to front derailleur, mimicking an under the BB cable routing. Fairly common practice in those halcyon days of MTB innovation.

Yes, the scoring on the BB shell is concerning. Not sure what to do about it though. I haven’t had a lot of time to really dig into this frame yet, but I’ll be sure to keep you all updated as things move along. For now I’m just soaking in the experience!
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Old 10-12-20, 09:58 AM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by Smokinapankake View Post
Seller claims to have bought it new and rode it all these years.



I’m thinking a 952 XTR build on some Hadley hubs with a rigid suspension corrected fork for old school simplicity... but we’ll see what turns up. It’s going to be a slow burn resto-mod as funds become available...
First and foremost, great find and backstory!
I love the passion shown by BF members when they find a grail bike, even more when the grail is not well known or easily found.

Second, I'm always a bit confused about what "suspension-corrected" means for a fork, so maybe you or someone can explain it to me better than the articles I've read.
Do you believe the fork in the photo is the original fork? If so, why do you need a different rigid fork than the original?
If you don't believe the previous owner that the fork shown is original, then what attributes would a "suspension-corrected" rigid fork have that this one doesn't?

I guess the only way this makes sense to me now is if you believe the frame was designed for an Action Tec fork or some other suspension fork, and that the current fork is not original nor is its crown-to-axle distance or rake sufficient to optimize the way the bike was designed to ride and handle with a suspension fork.

I think you might just have the key response to help me finally understanding "suspension-corrected".

Again, congratulations!
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Old 10-12-20, 10:11 AM
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Third bottle mount under the down tube... serious about long day riding to the middle of nowhere!
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Old 10-12-20, 11:02 AM
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I love the chain
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Old 10-12-20, 11:04 AM
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As I understand it, suspension corrected mostly just means a longer axle - crown length. In the early 90's suspension forks became very popular and lots of people were retrofitting them to their old bikes that were designed for a pre suspended length fork. A Rock Shox Mag21 (arguably the most popular of suspension forks) has an axle-crown length of somewhere around 415mm, whereas a non suspension corrected rigid fork will have an A-C length somewhere around 390 - 395mm. Rake/trail factor in as well but I don't feel qualified to comment on that. If your frame was designed around that extra length of a suspension fork, the head angle could be conceivably steepened a hair to compensate for the slackening effect the extra length of the fork would introduce. As you raise the front end, the frame pivots around the rear axle, & the effective head tube angle slackens (relative to the ground). Additionally, a suspension corrected frame could have the head tube slightly elevated. The person I bought it from told me it came with a Mag21 new, the fork on it now has an A-C measurement of 390mm, and as it sits the head tube angle (relative to the ground) is a steep 74.5 degrees. Most bikes have a head angle somewhere around 71, 72, maybe 73 degrees. I believe this was designed around a Mag21, not an Action-Tec fork as the head tube would have been much higher and 1.250" diameter. This is sporting a 1" steer tube. I have a Carver straight blade fork, 410mm A-C I'm going to put on just to see how it affects the head angle. I suspect it will place that head angle right about 72.5 degrees, but we shall see. Hope that makes sense, and if I'm way out in left field, please those more knowledgeable than me- straighten me out!
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Old 10-12-20, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Smokinapankake View Post
As I understand it, suspension corrected mostly just means a longer axle - crown length. In the early 90's suspension forks became very popular and lots of people were retrofitting them to their old bikes that were designed for a pre suspended length fork. A Rock Shox Mag21 (arguably the most popular of suspension forks) has an axle-crown length of somewhere around 415mm, whereas a non suspension corrected rigid fork will have an A-C length somewhere around 390 - 395mm. Rake/trail factor in as well but I don't feel qualified to comment on that. If your frame was designed around that extra length of a suspension fork, the head angle could be conceivably steepened a hair to compensate for the slackening effect the extra length of the fork would introduce. As you raise the front end, the frame pivots around the rear axle, & the effective head tube angle slackens (relative to the ground). Additionally, a suspension corrected frame could have the head tube slightly elevated. The person I bought it from told me it came with a Mag21 new, the fork on it now has an A-C measurement of 390mm, and as it sits the head tube angle (relative to the ground) is a steep 74.5 degrees. Most bikes have a head angle somewhere around 71, 72, maybe 73 degrees. I believe this was designed around a Mag21, not an Action-Tec fork as the head tube would have been much higher and 1.250" diameter. This is sporting a 1" steer tube. I have a Carver straight blade fork, 410mm A-C I'm going to put on just to see how it affects the head angle. I suspect it will place that head angle right about 72.5 degrees, but we shall see. Hope that makes sense, and if I'm way out in left field, please those more knowledgeable than me- straighten me out!
Thanks much for the clear, detailed reply!
It definitely makes sense to me and decreases the confusion I have had with it.
I've dealt with the opposite issue with an early 90s Slingshot mtb for which the original rigid steel straight-blade fork was replaced with a RS Mag 20 suspension fork for some reason.
Now I feel more confident and knowledgeable about optimal straight-bladed rigid steel forks for my bikes that didn't have the original one when I bought them.
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Old 10-12-20, 12:31 PM
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Thanks to the magic and power of Facebook, I've sent messages to Mr. Brett Howard, whose name shows up when you do a search for Fishlips Cycles, along with a wall that contains lots of Fishlips photos. He appears to have gone inactive, however - His last post was 5 years ago.
I've also sent a message to my former coworker Renn DeWitt, who claims to have welded frames for Fishlips. He's more active, with his most recent posting back in August. So crossing fingers to get some confirmation from someone who knows more about this nonsense than me....
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Old 10-12-20, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Smokinapankake View Post
So the boss on the rear of the seat tube is a mount for a front derailleur cable pulley (missing). Cable comes down, wraps around the pulley, and back up to front derailleur, mimicking an under the BB cable routing. Fairly common practice in those halcyon days of MTB innovation.

Yes, the scoring on the BB shell is concerning. Not sure what to do about it though. I havenít had a lot of time to really dig into this frame yet, but Iíll be sure to keep you all updated as things move along. For now Iím just soaking in the experience!
Perhaps some frame builders could pipe up. My hazy knowledge of metallurgy makes me think it would be easy to fill and touch up with gloss paint, reducing the chance of a stress riser that could crack the BB. I once pounded over and into a railway crossing and my BB that split right across the bottom, parallel to the spindle.
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Old 10-12-20, 12:59 PM
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I like the Pan-African flag style chain.
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Old 10-12-20, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by clubman View Post
Perhaps some frame builders could pipe up. My hazy knowledge of metallurgy makes me think it would be easy to fill and touch up with gloss paint, reducing the chance of a stress riser that could crack the BB. I once pounded over and into a railway crossing and my BB that split right across the bottom, parallel to the spindle.
This is what I was just contemplating. Shouldn't be too hard to clean it out and fill with brass braze or even silver solder. But I would appreciate input from more knowledgeable minds than mine. Maybe post up in the framebuilding section,,,
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Old 10-13-20, 07:33 PM
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So I mounted up my 410mm axle to crown Carver fork with the expected result: head angle slackened to 72 degrees exactly, seat tube sits at 74 degrees. Those numbers match my old Kona Kilauea from 1996. And that was one of my favorite bikes Iíve ever owned (wish I hadnít sold it&#128575. Now what to do about the BB...

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