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The 5 Vis appreciation thread

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The 5 Vis appreciation thread

Old 11-06-20, 09:09 AM
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I've got two 5 Vis cranksets on two bikes.

Lambert arms with Velo Orange single ring on my fixed gear:




And Sun XCD arms with Velo Orange 46/30 rings on my Trek.



The XCD arms feel a lot stiffer than the old Lamberts, FWIW.
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Old 11-06-20, 09:38 AM
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Oooh I can play this game!

Here's the tandem outer ring with bashguard on my Batavus Randonneur GL, 52/42/26T. The extra holes for the bashguard are designed to give a bit of extra stiffness but they can also be used to add a third chainring on here.



I plan to design a custom chainring around the Pro5Vis for a classic Gazelle bicycle.


One other nice custom design is the one by GrandBois, with it's own interpretation of the compact double 46/26T.




And don't forget BespokeChainrings on eBay. They used to make very cool Solida chainrings based around this BCD size:
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Old 11-06-20, 10:20 AM
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I have one set of 5 VIS cranks in use, a set of Nervar 631/633 that I acquired in a trade with some $$ thrown in. I got them along with a Nervar British-threaded BB, but I am currently running it on what I believe to be the original Stronglight bottom bracket in my Allegro. I am not in love with the 42/52T chainrings, though, and someday I will break down and get myself a set of 30/46T or similar. Here is the obligatory pic of the velo in question -



- and no pic at this time, but I DO have set of T.A.'s in the workshop with chainrings even less useful than these. I'm not a French racer in 1967, so 45/52T by 14-24 doesn't quite make it for me. Then again, I got the crankset and an amazingly clean T.A. French BB for $20 along with the world's rattiest 54 cm Gitane Grand Sport in this hemisphere. Someday I will find the appropriate bike to fit them to.
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Old 11-06-20, 10:40 AM
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-----

tip for Verot fans -

a little known adaptor chainwheel was offered which permits one to run model 99 chainwheels (86BCD) on a cinque vis chainset -



with the 86mm BCD the smallest inner is 28T

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Old 11-06-20, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by cudak888

-Kurt
Ahhh, there's that lovely bike again.

One reason - and quite possibly the main reason - I like this bike so much is the choice of parts. They have an industrial minimalist elegance (for lack of a better phrase) about them which hasn't been repeated since. These weren't made by designers. This is the work of engineers. Engineers with an eye for beauty. French engineers.
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Old 11-06-20, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by nlerner
The rare Sugino PX was a Japanese contribution to this design:
VeloBase.com - Component: Sugino PX

And evidentially Sugino also made the Super Maxy in this bcd:

no enumeration of Sugino cinque vis chainsets would be complete without mention of the venerable Pro Dynamic:






VeloBase.com - Component: Sugino Pro Dynamic

also produced in a cottered version -




VeloBase.com - Component: Sugino Pro Dynamic (Cottered)

some early examples exhibit chainwheels with a triangular pattern spider reminiscent of the earliest Maxy sets -




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Old 11-06-20, 01:19 PM
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The basic design of the 50.4mm bolt circle has allowed the design to do almost any job, albeit with a ton of fasteners!

The old Cyclo-Pedia catalog sold the TA cranks, and had a variety of options for chainwheel configurations....




It was only a few years ago that I finally bought a modern version, the SunXCD clone, and installed it on my Hetchins. I had been looking for a way to get some lower gears on the bike, and this seemed like the best way to maintain the classic looks.



The SunXCD cranks have a much wider Q factor than the Campy Record cranks that they replaced, but it hasn't been an issue for me. They have performed quite well!

Steve in Peoria
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Old 11-06-20, 01:58 PM
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The A. Duprat marque MAXIPLUM (not MAXIPLUME) offered this rara avis alloy cottered chainset. A NOS example presently on offer at a scant DCD Euro






https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Rare-Pedalie...kAAOSwTbNbybvn

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Old 11-06-20, 02:03 PM
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Glamour shot of the XCD/VO set

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Old 11-06-20, 02:56 PM
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cudak888 What is the bike you’ve posted here? Any other threads about it?
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Old 11-06-20, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by abshipp
Glamour shot of the XCD/VO set

I find it intriguing that VO went to the trouble to make a thick and rigid chainring that includes pins (and ramps??) to aid shifting. I'm sure that TA knows how to do this, but apparently hasn't felt the need to do it for their 50.4 BCD rings (or at least didn't do it for mine).
As an engineer, I find myself wondering about the tooling cost for the unique chainring, the volume of sales, and how many they have to sell to break even on it.
Of course, that's also an analysis that had to be done for the SunXCD crank arms, etc. It would be interesting to know how many have been sold. The same applies to the new Rene Herse cranks that Jan Heine sells... is there a market for 1000 cranks? 10,000 cranks?

Steve in Peoria (glad that I don't have to worry about this stuff)
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Old 11-06-20, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by steelbikeguy
(..)
It was only a few years ago that I finally bought a modern version, the SunXCD clone, and installed it on my Hetchins. I had been looking for a way to get some lower gears on the bike, and this seemed like the best way to maintain the classic looks.

Nice! I did the same with a couple of Eroica rides. My Locomotief TdF and Mann-Libertas both sported a 50/36 up front:




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Old 11-06-20, 05:12 PM
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I wanted these for my tandem, and ended up having to buy another tandem to finally get them:



Now on the right tandem, with a third chain ring:

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Old 11-06-20, 05:44 PM
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was wondering why maker placed canti bosses on seat stays rather than laterals...

reckon they did not wish to end up with straddle cable above lateral tube

seems like it would have been a simple matter to have then facing downward from the laterals

build planning for a doublet frame somewhat mo' complex than for a singlet...

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Last edited by juvela; 11-06-20 at 05:46 PM. Reason: addition
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Old 11-06-20, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Wills
Nice adaptation of the original Deore crank. I had one of those on my old Schwinn Superior back in the '80's, complete with the DynaDrive pedals. The pedals worked well with my big feet.

Another modern variation of this design is/was the Sun XCD Exceed crank that showed up a couple years ago. It's similar to the VO crank so I wonder if they're from the same factory:
I got a set of these- trying out the compact double thing that the kids are all into these days.

SunXCD Phil TA by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickr
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Old 11-06-20, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by steelbikeguy
I find it intriguing that VO went to the trouble to make a thick and rigid chainring that includes pins (and ramps??) to aid shifting. I'm sure that TA knows how to do this, but apparently hasn't felt the need to do it for their 50.4 BCD rings (or at least didn't do it for mine).
As an engineer, I find myself wondering about the tooling cost for the unique chainring, the volume of sales, and how many they have to sell to break even on it.
Of course, that's also an analysis that had to be done for the SunXCD crank arms, etc. It would be interesting to know how many have been sold. The same applies to the new Rene Herse cranks that Jan Heine sells... is there a market for 1000 cranks? 10,000 cranks?

Steve in Peoria (glad that I don't have to worry about this stuff)
According to Jan Heine in his Rene Herse blog:
Chainring ramps: Chainring ramps only work for matched pairs of rings, and even then it is debatable how much they contribute to better shifting. (Above are two random shifts: One used the ramp, the other did not.)
The René Herse cranks are available with a huge selection of chainrings, so you can get gearing that is perfectly matched to your strength and riding style. This means that we cannot offer matched pairs of rings.
Many aftermarket chainrings aren’t designed as matched pairs, either, and instead feature “cosmetic” ramps that don’t do much. Such a “make-believe” feature is counter to our beliefs. Instead, we optimized the chainring tooth profiles for smoother shifting with any chainring combination. But many customers still wonder why our chainrings don’t have ramps.
A quick look at Velo Orange's current offerings show us they only offer a 48/46 outer ring with a 34T middle if you want pinned and ramped chainrings. Now it could be a lot of it is out of stock right now but a Spécialités T.A. offers them in a 52/50/48/46/44/42/40 outer and a 42/40/38/36/34/32/30/28/26 middle/inner.

These chainrings are no longer ridden by track, road or cyclocross racers that require perfectly matched rings that shift well under load.
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Old 11-07-20, 04:07 AM
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A steel set with a 50/28 tooth count. Still waiting for the right cranks (and bike) to go with it. Until then it is a darn classy paper weight.

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Old 11-07-20, 04:11 AM
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The smallest ring I have. For when I'll be getting past my prime. A 26T, made for 1/8th chain:


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Old 11-07-20, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by steelbikeguy
I find it intriguing that VO went to the trouble to make a thick and rigid chainring that includes pins (and ramps??) to aid shifting. I'm sure that TA knows how to do this, but apparently hasn't felt the need to do it for their 50.4 BCD rings (or at least didn't do it for mine).
As an engineer, I find myself wondering about the tooling cost for the unique chainring, the volume of sales, and how many they have to sell to break even on it.
Of course, that's also an analysis that had to be done for the SunXCD crank arms, etc. It would be interesting to know how many have been sold. The same applies to the new Rene Herse cranks that Jan Heine sells... is there a market for 1000 cranks? 10,000 cranks?

Steve in Peoria (glad that I don't have to worry about this stuff)
VO doesn't seem to shy away from spending money on tooling. I mean, over the past few years they've come out with what, 3 or 4 new frame models? All selling at less than a $1k price point with lots of braze ons, etc, so there's got to be a decent amount of stuff being made. The way to get costs down that low is to streamline the process, which implies lots of fixturing.

Regarding the chainrings in particular, I wonder if the ramp/pin design for a 46/30 chainring set is "common industry knowledge" by this point so there wouldn't be much engineering involved.

Originally Posted by JaccoW
According to Jan Heine in his Rene Herse blog:

A quick look at Velo Orange's current offerings show us they only offer a 48/46 outer ring with a 34T middle if you want pinned and ramped chainrings. Now it could be a lot of it is out of stock right now but a Spécialités T.A. offers them in a 52/50/48/46/44/42/40 outer and a 42/40/38/36/34/32/30/28/26 middle/inner.

These chainrings are no longer ridden by track, road or cyclocross racers that require perfectly matched rings that shift well under load.
Ramps and pins are overkill for me, that's for sure. The bike they are on has downtube shifters, so shifting under load just isn't a thing that ever happens. I think I just bought the VO ones because they were the most economical

I do kind of wish I would have gone with the TA rings, and just a little bit smaller. I think a 44/28 or 44/26 would be pretty perfect for how I ride that bike.
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Old 11-07-20, 08:42 AM
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Any educated opinions on whether the Sun XCD crank arms would work well with a Campy NR bottom bracket? I’m getting to the point of considering a compact crank for the Stella’s 52/42 NR and this would be a visually suitable replacement. Is the taper compatible? Maybe the wider q-factor a function of correct taper but larger size?
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Old 11-07-20, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by 73StellaSX76
Any educated opinions on whether the Sun XCD crank arms would work well with a Campy NR bottom bracket? I’m getting to the point of considering a compact crank for the Stella’s 52/42 NR and this would be a visually suitable replacement. Is the taper compatible? Maybe the wider q-factor a function of correct taper but larger size?
I think youd have a better chance with converting to a JIS spindle or cartridge BB and playing with the spindle length if you need a different Q factor.
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Old 11-07-20, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by non-fixie
Over the years I have come to really appreciate the 50.4 BCD "5 vis" (five screw) cranks.

I have used them to build touring triples, but my favorite application is the compact double, such as this one:



So, any more 5 vis lovers out there? Show us what you've got!
I have a 50 40 30 50.4 TA triple but am fiending over one of these 50/34 compact doubles for a French English project I am travaillering on. I assume there is some chainring bolt hardware to be changed and a 34 ring.
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Old 11-07-20, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by polymorphself
cudak888 What is the bike you’ve posted here? Any other threads about it?
A 1982 Schwinn Superior - basically a Paramount - that was modified and repainted at one point in its life. The Tange fork was jettisoned for what it has now before the repaint as well. Perhaps the Ishiwata fork crown cracked? Who knows? There's a bit of a 1984-era PDG sticker left under the seattube.

Found it at an LBS as a frameset about six months after it was up on Craigslist with Super Record, lime green bar tape, and a cruiser saddle.

Here's the original thread on the build when it was first finished in 2011: Faux French: 1982 Schwinn Superior
Here's the latest thread about it, featuring the Jubilee RD and color-matched Newbaums tape (which wasn't available in '11): New cotton for the Superior

Originally Posted by JaccoW
These chainrings are no longer ridden by track, road or cyclocross racers that require perfectly matched rings that shift well under load.
True, but there's a fair amount of people who want the vintage look and modern performance these days. For VO, it's a potential selling point of their fairly pricey bits over a current offering from one of the big brands.

-Kurt
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Old 11-07-20, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Narhay
I have a 50 40 30 50.4 TA triple but am fiending over one of these 50/34 compact doubles for a French English project I am travaillering on. I assume there is some chainring bolt hardware to be changed and a 34 ring.
In that case I'd just take out the middle ring and start with a 50/30. Or 50/40. As long as the hills are not too steep, a 50/40, coupled to a 14-28 in the rear is a nice combo.
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Old 11-07-20, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by abshipp
.....
Ramps and pins are overkill for me, that's for sure. The bike they are on has downtube shifters, so shifting under load just isn't a thing that ever happens. I think I just bought the VO ones because they were the most economical

I do kind of wish I would have gone with the TA rings, and just a little bit smaller. I think a 44/28 or 44/26 would be pretty perfect for how I ride that bike.
There was a place in the UK that was selling the SunXCD arms with a selection of TA rings, which is how I got mine. The 50/34 rings go well with the six speed 13-26 freewheel and let me get up just about everything around here. I've got pinned & ramped rings on my 'bents, so I know how effortless shifting can be. Still, when using downtube or bar-end shifters, it's certainly not required.

As far as VO... does their customer base include a lot of folks using STI and Ergo? I've never used these, but I'm guessing that they benefit from the easier shifting??

In some ways, I think it is good for people to appreciate what shifting is like when using downtube levers and plain chainrings.. "it builds character".
On the other hand... it's sort of like expecting people to grow their own vegetables and raise and butcher their own livestock. It's probably good to know and understand, but it's never going to happen.

Steve in Peoria
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