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Rules of thumb for older bikes

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Rules of thumb for older bikes

Old 12-06-20, 01:35 PM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by nlerner View Post
@cudak888, can you really call Campy NR RDs durable when pretty much every one develops cracked pulleys? That seems like a serious design or manufacturing flaw.
I'm not trying to answer on cudak888 's behalf, but I see this as kind of a prickly issue that interests me since one could make the argument that the Campagnolo pulleys crack BECAUSE they are better. Better in the sense that the pulleys each have an oiled bronze bushing in the center of the plastic wheel. The crack that develops is the consequence of the plastic shrinking relative to the bronze bushing. Is it a design or manufacturing defect that Campagnolo went to the expense of using a better bearing, but one that wouldn't last 40 years? From a C&V perspective, we'd like stuff to last forever but we know that elastomers (tires, Simplex shift levers, brake pads, and Campagnolo idlers) don't age well over a period measured in decades. How much should we have a right to expect?
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Old 12-06-20, 03:03 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by daka View Post
I'm not trying to answer on cudak888 's behalf, but I see this as kind of a prickly issue that interests me since one could make the argument that the Campagnolo pulleys crack BECAUSE they are better. Better in the sense that the pulleys each have an oiled bronze bushing in the center of the plastic wheel. The crack that develops is the consequence of the plastic shrinking relative to the bronze bushing. Is it a design or manufacturing defect that Campagnolo went to the expense of using a better bearing, but one that wouldn't last 40 years? From a C&V perspective, we'd like stuff to last forever but we know that elastomers (tires, Simplex shift levers, brake pads, and Campagnolo idlers) don't age well over a period measured in decades. How much should we have a right to expect?
Counter counterpoint: Shimano figured out how to copy Campagnolo's pulley wheels, and have since put them on millions of derailers, from low end to mid-range. Same bushing design. The Shimano ones don't crack.

-Kurt
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Old 12-06-20, 03:21 PM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
Counter counterpoint: Shimano figured out how to copy Campagnolo's pulley wheels, and have since put them on millions of derailers, from low end to mid-range. Same bushing design. The Shimano ones don't crack.

-Kurt
Exactly. It's like some of those great cars from BITD that were prone to engine failure. As long as the engine didn't fail, they were great.
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Old 12-06-20, 03:21 PM
  #104  
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The Shimano ones don't crack.

.....yet.

Last edited by daka; 12-06-20 at 03:26 PM.
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Old 12-06-20, 05:11 PM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by nlerner View Post
Exactly. It's like some of those great cars from BITD that were prone to engine failure. As long as the engine didn't fail, they were great.
I'll take Pontiac 400's for $400, Alex.

Originally Posted by daka View Post
The Shimano ones don't crack.

.....yet.
I'd say 20-30 years of not cracking is more than acceptable.

-Kurt
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Old 12-06-20, 05:16 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by randyjawa View Post
That is how the OP started this thread. He or she admits that he or she is new to old bicycles then goes on, to tell us that he or she has developed a list of Rules for guys like me (20+ years in this hobby and restored, street restored or just plain refurbished hundreds and hundreds of vintage road bikes) what is what. The arrogance, though not necessarily intended, comes through in capital, bold, italicized letters.

So why the anger, if that is what was displayed by some of us? Because it is offensive for someone who shows up, admits to knowing little and then tells the more experienced people what is what. Then...

90 posts later the OP does a 100% reversal, from "just got into old bikes" to "I've ridden old bikes all my life (59 out of 70 years)". Had you started with the second line, no negativity would have surfaced.

I do realize that the appearance of arrogance was not intended but that is how it came across. I also realize the the OP is a smart, articulate and thoughtful person. With that in mind, and knowing that I enjoy communicating with smart, articulate thoughtful people - especially if they like old road bikes. I do hope that we hear more from bbpo8.
Hear, hear, Randy!
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Old 12-06-20, 05:33 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by randyjawa View Post
That is how the OP started this thread. He or she admits that he or she is new to old bicycles then goes on, to tell us that he or she has developed a list of Rules for guys like me (20+ years in this hobby and restored, street restored or just plain refurbished hundreds and hundreds of vintage road bikes) what is what. The arrogance, though not necessarily intended, comes through in capital, bold, italicized letters.

So why the anger, if that is what was displayed by some of us? Because it is offensive for someone who shows up, admits to knowing little and then tells the more experienced people what is what. Then...

90 posts later the OP does a 100% reversal, from "just got into old bikes" to "I've ridden old bikes all my life (59 out of 70 years)". Had you started with the second line, no negativity would have surfaced.

I do realize that the appearance of arrogance was not intended but that is how it came across. I also realize the the OP is a smart, articulate and thoughtful person. With that in mind, and knowing that I enjoy communicating with smart, articulate thoughtful people - especially if they like old road bikes. I do hope that we hear more from bbpo8.
I have to admit, the OP's first line did influence my expectations and assumptions. I agree with your assessments!
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Old 12-06-20, 05:38 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by bbpo8 View Post
OP here... By studying pages on Bike Forums and similar sites, as well as old bike catalogs, I collected some Rules of Thumb about assessing older bikes. Most of the information was on geared steel road bikes, so that's what I concentrated on... They helped me make sense of the hundreds of bikes available online... Since the Bike Forums had helped me, I thought I would give something back... So thank you for your responses, all of them.
Hey, op. You might also want to check out this c&v appraisals thread below. It's not just about selling or making a buck. Lots of good info in there. Happy riding

Bike Flipping 101
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Old 12-06-20, 05:53 PM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by Trakhak View Post
....

bbpo8, if you behave humbly enough in your subsequent C&V posts, you'll eventually get your post count up to where you'll be tolerated, or even accepted, by the self-appointed gatekeepers. In the meantime, I recommend poking around in the Clydesdales/Athenas subforum. People are genuinely warm, welcoming, and mutually supportive there.
... I am warm as hell, God dammit.
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Old 12-06-20, 05:57 PM
  #110  
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In light of previous posts, there are no rules of thumb when going vintage, despite what some consider vintage for whatever reason, you can make your own rules, because who's going to stop you? You don't need anyone's approval. 'Vintage' changes every decade or so.

However there are a few things worth considering:

-are you looking for vintage bikes because of the ride feel? You will have to simply ride the bikes.
If you put modern components on vintage frames, the change will be night and day. My preferred MO.

-are you starting a personal collection? then pick whatever you want, it's your collection, who cares what others consider vintage or valuable.

-are you collecting because of value/resale value/as an investment? stick with the known, tried and true brands, Colnago, Bianchi etc.

- for lightweight race bikes, check period correct races (Tour de France, Giro d'Italia, etc) for bikes, brands, models, tubing, etc.

-are you looking to fix up/flip bikes? the more cogs at the rear the better.

As you mentioned you're in your 70's, I'd let my money burn a hole, look at high quality pictures of them on the web and get myself something I can comfortably ride a lot and enjoy riding.

As far as componentry, because of the age of these bicycles, not many still rock original components, so not really a rule of thumb, especially on cheap barn finds etc.
Don't be fooled, when people on this forum find bargains, they know what they're doing.

Personally I'm only interested in vintage frames/forks, as the rest of the components are pretty much garbage compared to what's available today, this is my personal opinion, which is an opinion possibly not shared by anyone else on this forum.
I'm certain other people love them and that's absolutely fine, I have no problen with that. If I can sell them for others to enjoy, instead of throwing them away, even better.

Then again, I'm in my early 30's so pretty much any bike older than 2000- vintage, older than 1990- fossil, older than 1980- I don't go there.

Don't take the replies personal, it's only the internet.
I'm new here too, so welcome 😁 .
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Old 12-06-20, 07:10 PM
  #111  
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Shoot, everyone gets twitterpaited when they see a 531 sticker, or Campy components, or a brooks saddle at a yard sale, flea market, or thrift store. Especially at a bargain price. Why have an interest in classic and collectible anything if the higher quality or rare good stuff wasn’t groovy? Obviously there is total junk, mediocrity, and unicorns. It’s perfectly ok to be snobbish about real junk. Being so snobbish that you can’t recognize genuine rarity and quality though.........
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Old 12-06-20, 10:00 PM
  #112  
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Going to jump in again for another 2c.

When I jumped back in to bikes 7-8 years ago, mid 50's, I had some lines drawn and wasted no time going after my wants, Merz customs from here in PDX, Paramount, Raleigh Pro, Moto TC, Cinelli SC, Bianchi SC, Peugeot PR + PX-10, etc.

Through that process, I gained insight, adjusted some of my sights and continued to forge ahead.

Spent quite a bit of money, got some great deals and paid dearly for some of them.

No regrets and would have gladly paid more for some if I had to.

The market has changed a bit since then but I would encourage anyone to buy when they find a good or just an example that you may not see again.

This is hard to know so you have to take a leap sometimes, if you are considering something, seriously do so, when did you last see one, are there any others for sale, etc.

You need to decide for yourself if it fits your wants despite what others think, this is where you have to take a stand and draw a line.

Plenty here share my views on many things as I am a product of the 70's so most of my wants come from the bike boom as shown by my list.

The process of this helped build my continued outlook for different buys, Merckx, Holdsworth, Specialized, Dave Moulton, Marinoni, Trek, Bottecchia, Rodriguez, Paisley, 3Rensho and many others all the while refining my process for looking at this crazy thing we call C+V.
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Old 12-07-20, 02:23 AM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by Schlafen View Post
In light of previous posts, there are no rules of thumb when going vintage, despite what some consider vintage for whatever reason, you can make your own rules, because who's going to stop you? You don't need anyone's approval. 'Vintage' changes every decade or so.

However there are a few things worth considering:

-are you looking for vintage bikes because of the ride feel? You will have to simply ride the bikes.
If you put modern components on vintage frames, the change will be night and day. My preferred MO.

-are you starting a personal collection? then pick whatever you want, it's your collection, who cares what others consider vintage or valuable.

-are you collecting because of value/resale value/as an investment? stick with the known, tried and true brands, Colnago, Bianchi etc.

- for lightweight race bikes, check period correct races (Tour de France, Giro d'Italia, etc) for bikes, brands, models, tubing, etc.

-are you looking to fix up/flip bikes? the more cogs at the rear the better.

As you mentioned you're in your 70's, I'd let my money burn a hole, look at high quality pictures of them on the web and get myself something I can comfortably ride a lot and enjoy riding.

As far as componentry, because of the age of these bicycles, not many still rock original components, so not really a rule of thumb, especially on cheap barn finds etc.
Don't be fooled, when people on this forum find bargains, they know what they're doing.

Personally I'm only interested in vintage frames/forks, as the rest of the components are pretty much garbage compared to what's available today, this is my personal opinion, which is an opinion possibly not shared by anyone else on this forum.
I'm certain other people love them and that's absolutely fine, I have no problen with that. If I can sell them for others to enjoy, instead of throwing them away, even better.

Then again, I'm in my early 30's so pretty much any bike older than 2000- vintage, older than 1990- fossil, older than 1980- I don't go there.

Don't take the replies personal, it's only the internet.
I'm new here too, so welcome 😁 .
you might have a point there I sold my Rossin record( bought new) ,all campy super record from the 1980s .I bought newer Casati, from the late 1990s and was amazing how much better than brakes worked, the dual pivot campy Centaur brakes have amazing stopping powere an smooth.
I will say I should have kept the Rossin ,, the Columbus SL frame was smooth , and had no toe over lap ( my pet peeve) . It road very well on fast road racing and also century rides. Some of the older frames just have a geometry and feel to them .. My opinion


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Last edited by rossiny; 12-07-20 at 02:26 AM.
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Old 12-07-20, 12:54 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by bbpo8 View Post
What a weird place!

Half of the comments had good specific information. Half are going off on tangents. The personal stuff is just silly. What's the point?

Yes, I do consider you experts. I've learned a lot from reading here. I don't think you should downrplay your expertise. The technical discussions are usually clear and understandable. In spite of minor disagreements, there seems to be a shared understanding which I've tried to capture. If something specific is wrong, let me know.

Yes, these are rules of thumb and don't cover all the cases. There are always exceptions. But I was surprised at the unanimity, for example, when people asked about the value of a bike they just picked up. Estimates were close to each other, as well as the suggestions for what to do with the bike.

The knowledge you have is important because people will be buying and using bikes more in the future because of the pandemic, urban congestion and climate change. Covid will probably be with us for some time, and bikes are one way to cope with it. Cities around the world are encouraging people to use bicycles.

The gap between your expertise and that of the general public is immense.
Yes, this is a weird place. The people here are usually nice(even when they wish not to be). I would say that Rule #1 is to be respectful. Rule #2 is to refer back to Rule #1. Rule #3 is that there is no Rule #3.
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