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Overspreading a steel frame? Rear wheel not inline anymore...

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Overspreading a steel frame? Rear wheel not inline anymore...

Old 12-02-20, 10:36 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by jamesdak View Post
And some I'm still in the process of doing unspeakable things too....

Gasp! I can't believe that you would even consider defiling a classic Stella with a 2x4 or threaded rod.

Now you want to talk about things that the next owner will curse you for? Some previous owner cut the rear derailleur hanger off of this one.



Luckily, the owner before me knew how to fix that.
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Old 12-03-20, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa View Post
Not to mention, a Houyhnhnm would never be passionate enough to ride a bike in the first place.

You literary geeks better like that one.
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Old 12-03-20, 08:15 AM
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Jamie Swann is a machinist and teaches machining practices I believe. Notice his "top eyes" on his frame (the pieces on the seat tube end of the seat stays that attach to the seat lug). He machined those himself and are beautifully made. He is a talented framebuilder but is not a full time framebuilder. When you get into the weeds of the philosophy of frame alignment, he uses the head tube as his datum and not the face of the BB shell like I do. Like many aspects of life, there are a variety of methods to do the same job.

Andy K understood what I was trying to say. As a professional builder and painter, it is necessary for me to work to the highest standard. That is what customers want and expect. That doesn't mean that hobby/home methods won't work or are not acceptable at all. It is just likely they will not provide as good of a result. And sometimes not even an acceptable result. How much those differences make can be a matter of discussion. What I can say is that many frames that have come to me for a repaint have also needed some serious alignment work. The assumption that a classic era frame is close to being spot on is incorrect. I can also testify that I can feel the before and after difference in a frame alignment. YMMV.

Years ago when pro riders rode steel frames, it was common that the non stars would want a mid season frame change. They would say their frame had lost its life (or some other way of describing a frame didn't seem to ride as well). My assessment was that their frame through use had gone somewhat out of alignment. The idea that a frame would lose stiffness through use doesn't make any sense from a metallurgist point of view. If they internet had forums back in the 70's this would have been a hot topic.
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Old 12-03-20, 08:25 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
Wow, thanks to both of you guys. I just spent the past half-hour reading his complete personal history on his website (so maybe I shouldn't thank you, because I'm supposed to be finish up my work for the day), and he definitely seems like the real deal. White hair is a huge plus in my book.
I've met him on the iBob rides too, he's pretty down to earth and his bikes are beautifully understated. I've read his site too and I have some background with a few of the characters he references. The first time I saw a frame getting "cold set" was some 40 years ago at Kissena Cycles where Al Toefeld broke out the 2x4. Opened my eyes to the adaptability of high-quality steel.
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Old 12-03-20, 10:08 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
Gasp! I can't believe that you would even consider defiling a classic Stella with a 2x4 or threaded rod.

Now you want to talk about things that the next owner will curse you for? Some previous owner cut the rear derailleur hanger off of this one.



Luckily, the owner before me knew how to fix that.

Wow, that is a beauty. Especially with it's rear spread to 130!
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Old 12-03-20, 01:12 PM
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@Doug Fattic, I remember that in the late 80s and early 90s how people thought steel frames became less stiff with use. And actually it was a topic on the net. Before the web we had Usenet, and Jobst Brandt weighed in frequently. He explained how steel doesn't lose stiffness though it fatigues and breaks. But his message wasn't reached widely. So if I understand you correctly, it can go out of alignment with use? And you're saying it rides worse when out of alignment? Those are easy to believe if you are making those points.

A few years ago, I brought my 1974 Raleigh International to a mechanic who had an alignment table. He found a lot of things needing correction which I hadn't even known about or perceived. But it never hurts to have it aligned. The BB was not perpendicular to the seat tube! Amazing.

Much longer ago, a bike shop owner asked me why I was still riding an old steel frame because it must be "whooped" which was funny since the street lingo I had heard was "whipped."
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Old 12-03-20, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider View Post
@Doug Fattic, I remember that in the late 80s and early 90s how people thought steel frames became less stiff with use. And actually it was a topic on the net. Before the web we had Usenet, and Jobst Brandt weighed in frequently. He explained how steel doesn't lose stiffness though it fatigues and breaks. But his message wasn't reached widely. So if I understand you correctly, it can go out of alignment with use? And you're saying it rides worse when out of alignment? Those are easy to believe if you are making those points.

A few years ago, I brought my 1974 Raleigh International to a mechanic who had an alignment table. He found a lot of things needing correction which I hadn't even known about or perceived. But it never hurts to have it aligned. The BB was not perpendicular to the seat tube! Amazing.

Much longer ago, a bike shop owner asked me why I was still riding an old steel frame because it must be "whooped" which was funny since the street lingo I had heard was "whipped."
Yes it is possible for a frame to go out of alignment with use (especially hard use) but that doesn't happen every time. In the past when I would get frames I've made back for repainting again, I would check alignment. What I found is that occasionally a frame would have gone out of alignment but not usually. The forks would be the area most likely in need of readjustment.

And yes in my opinion, bringing a frame back into alignment can make its ride feel better again. One example is a racing type of frame I made for myself to train with the big boys. My speed abilities were modest and it was difficult for me to stay with them and when I got tired, I would hit pot holes sometimes. I remember thinking that my bike didn't seem to ride as well as it did when it was new. While refurbishing it, I corrected the not-all-that-bad alignment issues and when I rode it again, it felt like I remembered it when new. I've often asked customers if they could tell after I did an alignment and their reports were mixed. Some said it made a significant difference while others said they couldn't tell the difference.
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Old 12-03-20, 02:19 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Doug Fattic View Post
Yes it is possible for a frame to go out of alignment with use (especially hard use) but that doesn't happen every time.
Does this also happen on aluminum frames? Surely you've checked alignment on at least a few, even it you can't realign them.
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Old 12-03-20, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ascherer View Post
I've met him on the iBob rides too, he's pretty down to earth and his bikes are beautifully understated. I've read his site too and I have some background with a few of the characters he references. The first time I saw a frame getting "cold set" was some 40 years ago at Kissena Cycles where Al Toefeld broke out the 2x4. Opened my eyes to the adaptability of high-quality steel.
Yeah, reading about crit races in Westbury, or at SUNY Old Westbury, made me fantasize about what the scene must have been like back in the day. Westbury is less than 5 minutes from where I am currently living. I also never considered SUNY as a place to ride now, but taking a look at Strava it seems like a little hot spot. That's also strange because I used to like flogging my motorcycle around there, and I don't remember ever seeing cyclists. I'll have to check it out again.
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Old 12-03-20, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
Yeah, reading about crit races in Westbury, or at SUNY Old Westbury, made me fantasize about what the scene must have been like back in the day. Westbury is less than 5 minutes from where I am currently living. I also never considered SUNY as a place to ride now, but taking a look at Strava it seems like a little hot spot. That's also strange because I used to like flogging my motorcycle around there, and I don't remember ever seeing cyclists. I'll have to check it out again.
In the way old days I lived in Queens and our club - an offshoot of Kissena - would do our Sunday rides to LI, usually Bayville. I lived on LI for about 20 years but never hit the Westbury campus, I stuck to the North Shore roads.
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Old 12-03-20, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ascherer View Post
...I stuck to the North Shore roads.
Nice. If you don't mind sharing, what are some of the better North Shore spots to ride?
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Old 12-03-20, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
Nice. If you don't mind sharing, what are some of the better North Shore spots to ride?
robertorolfo in my experience it's hard to go wrong on any road north of 25A between Glen Cove and Huntington. Here's a collection of rides, a few are mine and there are others' since I just don't get out there that often since I moved to Manhattan. The ride up to Caumsett is beautiful, as is Bayville from Oyster Bay is a pleasure. The roads between Hempstead and Huntington harbors can make you think you're upstate. Beside the ones marked, check out Chicken Valley, Remsen's/Ripley, Frost Mill, Beaver Brook, Mill River...really, try them all. Mill Hill Road out of Oyster Bay will test your climbing skills big time ;-) Have fun!
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Old 12-03-20, 04:13 PM
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I've spent a lot of time on the south shore (though not recently) and I think the north shore is much nicer. It also has hills, which are nice.
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Old 12-03-20, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ascherer View Post
robertorolfo in my experience it's hard to go wrong on any road north of 25A between Glen Cove and Huntington. Here's a collection of rides, a few are mine and there are others' since I just don't get out there that often since I moved to Manhattan. The ride up to Caumsett is beautiful, as is Bayville from Oyster Bay is a pleasure. The roads between Hempstead and Huntington harbors can make you think you're upstate. Beside the ones marked, check out Chicken Valley, Remsen's/Ripley, Frost Mill, Beaver Brook, Mill River...really, try them all. Mill Hill Road out of Oyster Bay will test your climbing skills big time ;-) Have fun!
Thanks for that link. I'm definitely going to check them out, and I can already see that a few of the routes pass fairly close to where I now live.

And I do know quite a few of those roads from my motorcycle days, but I have been curious about what it's like to ride them on a bike in terms of safety. This was something noglider mentioned in another thread, but in a lot of ways I felt safer in the city where keeping up with traffic (or closer to traffic speed), or using a dedicated lane, was usually a good option. Plus, so much is going on that people are usually forced to pay attention in the city, whereas here I see WAY too many people fooling around with their phones as they pass, and way too many mommy's doing ridiculously things in their SUV's.
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Old 12-03-20, 09:20 PM
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Might want to ping @rhm here for suggestions on LI rides, whether north or south fork. He's pretty much covered every road possible!
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Old 12-03-20, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
Thanks for that link. I'm definitely going to check them out, and I can already see that a few of the routes pass fairly close to where I now live.

And I do know quite a few of those roads from my motorcycle days, but I have been curious about what it's like to ride them on a bike in terms of safety. This was something noglider mentioned in another thread, but in a lot of ways I felt safer in the city where keeping up with traffic (or closer to traffic speed), or using a dedicated lane, was usually a good option. Plus, so much is going on that people are usually forced to pay attention in the city, whereas here I see WAY too many people fooling around with their phones as they pass, and way too many mommy's doing ridiculously things in their SUV's.
I agree with Tom. I've been sharing the road since 1972 and I rode those LI roads from 1979 - 2014, then I moved to the city. The last time I rode on LI I felt more at risk and uncomfortable for the reasons you cite - the vehicles are now much larger, they are driving faster and many are distracted. LI roads are more congested, drivers are more aggressive. I don't experience that when I ride out of the area, for example in Vermont.

It's also possible that I want to enjoy the scenery and that pulls my attention away from situational awareness. When I cycle in the city, especially when I'm commuting vs. a weekend ride my awareness is tuned into my immediate surroundings. I ride home up 6th Avenue and I never notice when I pass Radio City Music Hall, for instance. It's much easier to take a lane or opt for a route with a bike lane, with all their faults. Even so, I ride more now than I did then. There are other reasons - my kids are grown being a big one, but I have more options because I'm comfortable in urban settings. I can go in any direction from my door - rides to Coney Island or Flushing Meadows or Rockaway, Orchard Beach, etc etc can be a blast. Even just the perimeter of Manhattan - 30 miles of waterfront variety. If I want to see more green I can go through the Bronx or over the GWB and head north. It's not for everyone, for sure but it sure is varied and often it's just a subway ride home if necessary.
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Old 12-04-20, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ascherer View Post
It's also possible that I want to enjoy the scenery and that pulls my attention away from situational awareness. When I cycle in the city, especially when I'm commuting vs. a weekend ride my awareness is tuned into my immediate surroundings. I ride home up 6th Avenue and I never notice when I pass Radio City Music Hall, for instance. It's not for everyone, for sure but it sure is varied and often it's just a subway ride home if necessary.
I know exactly what you mean about staying focused and tuning things out, unless of course I'm stopped at a light in which case I may or may not take a glance at the business women crossing the street.

But yes, riding in the city is unique and can be quite rewarding. Some of my favorite rides were later at night after playing soccer or having dinner with friends. Nearly empty city streets definitely give you a good sensation for speed, and the bridges are a blast when nobody is on them.
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Old 12-07-20, 01:03 PM
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Yup. For dinking around with inexpensive frames that you can afford to trash if things don't go well, RJ The Bike Guy is a good go to source for ideas. For a truly valuable or sentimental frame find a good local frame builder. Just my 2 cents.
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Old 12-07-20, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ascherer View Post
robertorolfo in my experience it's hard to go wrong on any road north of 25A between Glen Cove and Huntington. Here's a collection of rides, a few are mine and there are others' since I just don't get out there that often since I moved to Manhattan. The ride up to Caumsett is beautiful, as is Bayville from Oyster Bay is a pleasure. The roads between Hempstead and Huntington harbors can make you think you're upstate. Beside the ones marked, check out Chicken Valley, Remsen's/Ripley, Frost Mill, Beaver Brook, Mill River...really, try them all. Mill Hill Road out of Oyster Bay will test your climbing skills big time ;-) Have fun!
That was about my range as a kid.
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Old 12-07-20, 01:51 PM
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I spread a 6 speed Miyata for a Shimano internal hub, used an automotive scissors jack, it came out fine. Sheldon B method is obviously better, thanks for sharing.
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Old 02-01-21, 03:23 PM
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I've spread a couple of steel frames from 126 to 130mm to accommodate newer wheels/larger cassettes using the threaded rod method. Reading through this thread makes me think I may have simply gotten lucky both times. Does anyone know of a frame builder in the GTA (Toronto) area that has extensive experience with adjusting vintage steel frames? Thanks for your thoughts.
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