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Possible Frame Swap Advice

Old 12-03-20, 07:59 PM
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Possible Frame Swap Advice

So I got myself into a little bit of a pickle (a good pickle), and I was curious to hear the thoughts of the good people in here.

Long story short (but I can give the longer story if you really want to hear it), I managed to purchase what I thought was a "find", picking up a Somec Dynamic frame and fork (Columbus MiniMax tubing), size 54 square, in pretty good condition. I put "find" in quotes because I later realized that it was listed on a bunch of different international Ebay sites. I found this out because I was doing some google research, as the bike apparently has a "MAX OR" sticker on it, instead of "MINIMAX", despite appearing to indeed be a MINIMAX (the serial number starts with a D, plus it looks distinctively like the MINIMAX Dynamic, and not the regular MAX tubed ProMax or ProMax CZ by Somec.

So here is where I get dumb. One of the results my google search turns up is a thread in that other forum named after a line of riders sticking together to maintain speed. So I click on it, expecting to get some info, and instead it is a thread about "bikes you must missed out on" or something like that. And the thread was started just the day before. And the guy that started it missed out on a Somec Dynamic he had been pining over and saving up for. And the guy who sold me the bike told me someone else was interested. And I think this isn't a coincidence... so stupid ole me goes and joins that forum and posts in the thread. What was I thinking!?

Anyway, I spit out some awkward post about how I sorta feel bad because the OP seemed to really have his heart set on the bike, and how it's definitely not my grail bike and perhaps even a touch small for me (I usually prefer a 55 or ever 56), and I go so far as to tell the OP that if I don't really love the bike once it is built up, I'll pass it along to him for what I paid. Well, sure enough, can of worms.

He immediately asks to get in touch by email, and I oblige. Opening email wastes no time on pleasantries, and he is immediately offering to trade a 55x55 De Rosa Primato (with EL OS tubing), straight up for the Somec. It even has a cool paint job, although I can't really see it because the one and only picture he provides is tiny. Hmmmm....

So I ask for more pictures, and the De Rosa is in rough shape (which he sort of hinted at). And I don't mind rough, but one spot in particular (where the top tube meats the lug at the seat tube) looks pretty suspect.

And that is where we are now (guess it wasn't such a short version of the story). The price of the De Rosa is exactly what I paid for the Somec, so it would be a straight up swap. The Somec is in much better condition (based on pictures, mind you, since I haven't actually received it yet), but the De Rosa is probably more valuable, and more importantly it's a slightly better fit for me (55x55 vs 54v54). Plus, the guy is apparently in NYC, so the swap would be easy to do in person.

So what say you all? Ok, I know what you are going to say: "we need pictures!" And I have them, but is posting them OK? I mean, would I somehow be a jerk for posting them? For all I know, the guy is also a member here, or a google search will bring him here. But, back to the point, should I go ahead with this proposed trade?
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Old 12-03-20, 08:42 PM
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Look at the DeRosa in person then decide?
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Old 12-03-20, 08:57 PM
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I've made two straight-across frame trades. In both cases, I traded a finish in better shape for a finish in rougher shape. In both cases, the frame I got was a grail bike that does not exactly grow on trees in my size. Both times I the frame I gave up was probably worth more on the open market than the frame I got. I do not for a moment regret either trade.

But here's the thing: in both cases, my trading partner and I were both able to meet and eyeball/examine/fondle the goods before we agreed. That beats the heck out of relying on photos (although we still want to see them). It sounds like you live close enough to the guy to arrange the same without too much trouble. I strongly suggest you do that.

Oh, and the second trade was just a few months ago during the current Covid-19 unpleasantness. We were able to do the deal outside and from a safe distance . I bet you can, too..

And don't guilt-trip yourself into doing a trade you will regret later. You did nothing wrong, and you do not owe this guy anything. I think it is great that you are considering doing this. But the trade has to feel right to both of you. If you meet the guy and the rough patch on the De Rosa (or anything else) makes you uncomfortable, or even if you just decide you like the Somec better, politely pass on the trade.

And remember, this opinion is worth exactly what you are paying for it.
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Old 12-03-20, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by obrentharris View Post
Look at the DeRosa in person then decide?
Brent
There you go, Brent, cutting to the chase.
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Old 12-03-20, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
So I got myself into a little bit of a pickle (a good pickle), and I was curious to hear the thoughts of the good people in here.

Long story short (but I can give the longer story if you really want to hear it), I managed to purchase what I thought was a "find", picking up a Somec Dynamic frame and fork (Columbus MiniMax tubing), size 54 square, in pretty good condition. I put "find" in quotes because I later realized that it was listed on a bunch of different international Ebay sites. I found this out because I was doing some google research, as the bike apparently has a "MAX OR" sticker on it, instead of "MINIMAX", despite appearing to indeed be a MINIMAX (the serial number starts with a D, plus it looks distinctively like the MINIMAX Dynamic, and not the regular MAX tubed ProMax or ProMax CZ by Somec.

So here is where I get dumb. One of the results my google search turns up is a thread in that other forum named after a line of riders sticking together to maintain speed. So I click on it, expecting to get some info, and instead it is a thread about "bikes you must missed out on" or something like that. And the thread was started just the day before. And the guy that started it missed out on a Somec Dynamic he had been pining over and saving up for. And the guy who sold me the bike told me someone else was interested. And I think this isn't a coincidence... so stupid ole me goes and joins that forum and posts in the thread. What was I thinking!?

Anyway, I spit out some awkward post about how I sorta feel bad because the OP seemed to really have his heart set on the bike, and how it's definitely not my grail bike and perhaps even a touch small for me (I usually prefer a 55 or ever 56), and I go so far as to tell the OP that if I don't really love the bike once it is built up, I'll pass it along to him for what I paid. Well, sure enough, can of worms.

He immediately asks to get in touch by email, and I oblige. Opening email wastes no time on pleasantries, and he is immediately offering to trade a 55x55 De Rosa Primato (with EL OS tubing), straight up for the Somec. It even has a cool paint job, although I can't really see it because the one and only picture he provides is tiny. Hmmmm....

So I ask for more pictures, and the De Rosa is in rough shape (which he sort of hinted at). And I don't mind rough, but one spot in particular (where the top tube meats the lug at the seat tube) looks pretty suspect.

And that is where we are now (guess it wasn't such a short version of the story). The price of the De Rosa is exactly what I paid for the Somec, so it would be a straight up swap. The Somec is in much better condition (based on pictures, mind you, since I haven't actually received it yet), but the De Rosa is probably more valuable, and more importantly it's a slightly better fit for me (55x55 vs 54v54). Plus, the guy is apparently in NYC, so the swap would be easy to do in person.

So what say you all? Ok, I know what you are going to say: "we need pictures!" And I have them, but is posting them OK? I mean, would I somehow be a jerk for posting them? For all I know, the guy is also a member here, or a google search will bring him here. But, back to the point, should I go ahead with this proposed trade?
I don't know much about MiniMax, but I have a Mondonico made of EL OS, and it makes a great ride. But, condition and your pride of ownership is important. I also don't have a good feeling for how Somec stacks up against DeRosa. DeRosa freaks in these parts place it above all, and similarly respect Masi, Mondonico, and Merkcx. I have not heard much love for Somec, but same can be said for a LOT or other framemakers' labels. But a full repaint will cost several hundred, more when perhaps some restoration of metalwork is needed. Frame should be inspected, faced, chased, and aligned, with any OLD changes executed (126 to 130 conversion if needed).

The gent may be trading on the DeRosa name. Selling my Mondo ELOS I would probably do the same, but ... it's your money.

Any geometry features that influence the decision?
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Old 12-03-20, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by obrentharris View Post
Look at the DeRosa in person then decide?
Brent
Look only at the DeRosa. And...when the Somec arrives, don't think twice about calling off the whole trade thing.
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Old 12-04-20, 11:15 AM
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Thanks all for the advice. I've decided I will post a few pics (just give me a little bit, since I'm a work). In the meantime, a couple of key details below.

Originally Posted by obrentharris View Post
Look at the DeRosa in person then decide?
Brent
The problem is that he doesn't actually have the DeRosa yet. He would have to buy it, just so that we can do the swap. It's a little strange, but this guy is also a pretty strange character. His whole quest for a new bike was spurred by some crazy story about a homeless guy threatening him with a machete and slamming his current De Rosa Primato into the ground repeatedly. Yeah, you can't make this stuff up.

As for the paint, I don't mind the condition at all. It's very rough, but I kinda like that (I could ride it carefree, and it still looks nice to me). My issue is possible damage to the structure/structural integrity. Let me get going on those pics...
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Old 12-04-20, 11:48 AM
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This seems overly complicated. What happens if you don't want the DeRossa after seeing it in person, will you feel obligated to make the trade anyway. I wouldn't touch this deal with a ten foot pole. If you want him to have the Somec, sell it to him and find something else to buy.
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Old 12-04-20, 12:10 PM
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Two way swap? That's nothing. I was involved in a three frame swap a couple of years ago with @Andy Antipas and @Andy_K.



You see two frames, there were in actuality three, and a "frame to be named later", I believe. I'm still confused as what I gave up and what I got. I'm fairly certain I got screwed on the deal, since the 2 Andy's shown in the picture are smiling, whereas I'm not.

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Old 12-04-20, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
Thanks all for the advice. I've decided I will post a few pics (just give me a little bit, since I'm a work). In the meantime, a couple of key details below.



The problem is that he doesn't actually have the DeRosa yet. He would have to buy it, just so that we can do the swap. It's a little strange, but this guy is also a pretty strange character. His whole quest for a new bike was spurred by some crazy story about a homeless guy threatening him with a machete and slamming his current De Rosa Primato into the ground repeatedly. Yeah, you can't make this stuff up.

As for the paint, I don't mind the condition at all. It's very rough, but I kinda like that (I could ride it carefree, and it still looks nice to me). My issue is possible damage to the structure/structural integrity. Let me get going on those pics...

It's not even his De Rosa to trade yet? And the De Rosa is not your grail bike?

If he has the money to buy the De Rosa, then why wouldn't he just buy your frame outright at the same price, if you're willing to sell? All of this seems overly complicated. I think if you're not into the Somec, sell it, but be very careful with this goofball. I just don't like the sound of it.

EDIT: Just read brian3069's comment above, and I heartily second that...

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Old 12-04-20, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by gugie View Post
You see two frames, there were in actuality three, and a "frame to be named later", I believe. I'm still confused as what I gave up and what I got. I'm fairly certain I got screwed on the deal, since the 2 Andy's shown in the picture are smiling, whereas I'm not.

I think @Andy Antipas definitely got the best part of the deal with that Urago. If it had been my size, I'd have definitely kept it. Speaking of which, it doesn't look like that Grand Record will fit you. The frame I got in the deal was the International which is currently on its way to @nlerner. The frame-to-be named later was the Lygie that you sold to @SquireBlack.

So, yeah, definitely some frame swapping going on with this group. Not sure I'd trade a Somec for a De Rosa though.

My advice to the OP: Flip a coin. Be sure to throw it really high in the air. While it's in the air, take note of how you're hoping it will land. That will tell you what you really want to do. Ignore the result of the coin toss.
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Old 12-04-20, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
Thanks all for the advice. I've decided I will post a few pics (just give me a little bit, since I'm a work). In the meantime, a couple of key details below.



The problem is that he doesn't actually have the DeRosa yet. He would have to buy it, just so that we can do the swap. It's a little strange, but this guy is also a pretty strange character. His whole quest for a new bike was spurred by some crazy story about a homeless guy threatening him with a machete and slamming his current De Rosa Primato into the ground repeatedly. Yeah, you can't make this stuff up.

As for the paint, I don't mind the condition at all. It's very rough, but I kinda like that (I could ride it carefree, and it still looks nice to me). My issue is possible damage to the structure/structural integrity. Let me get going on those pics...

STOP RIGHT WHERE YOU ARE.

Tell the guy you aren't interested anymore and stand pat with the Somec. This ain't the good kind of three way.
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Old 12-04-20, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
I think @Andy Antipas definitely got the best part of the deal with that Urago. If it had been my size, I'd have definitely kept it. Speaking of which, it doesn't look like that Grand Record will fit you. The frame I got in the deal was the International which is currently on its way to @nlerner. The frame-to-be named later was the Lygie that you sold to @SquireBlack.

So, yeah, definitely some frame swapping going on with this group. Not sure I'd trade a Somec for a De Rosa though.

My advice to the OP: Flip a coin. Be sure to throw it really high in the air. While it's in the air, take note of how you're hoping it will land. That will tell you what you really want to do. Ignore the result of the coin toss.
Unfortunately, I don't have any useful advice for the OP. Horse trading.....

However, since @andy k weighed in on @gugie post, I need to respond. I sent the following in a private message to @gugie.....

During that three way (that sounds a bit odd...), as I remember it, I think there was a small Moto GR frame, and a Lygie frame that Mark got. I know Mark sold the Lygie on because there was an on going thread about that bike. I don't know what happened to the Grand Record frame, but ironically, and at a later date, I went out and bought a complete but very tired Grand Record from a guy in Bremerton (Seattle Craigslist), which I still have, built up with 650b wheels and period parts and now serves as my gravel bike!

I bought from Andy K, the Urago and his red Pinarello Grand Touring touring frames, which I still have. I'm not sure Andy K got a frame out of it, but I gave him money? I'm thinking the frames I had that @gugie got went toward paying off some of Andy K's bill at Mark's shop?

As I remember it, it was a pretty fun day. We had a nice lunch too!
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Old 12-04-20, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by brian3069 View Post
This seems overly complicated. What happens if you don't want the DeRossa after seeing it in person, will you feel obligated to make the trade anyway. I wouldn't touch this deal with a ten foot pole. If you want him to have the Somec, sell it to him and find something else to buy.
Yes, it is a bit complicated for sure, and indeed that feeling of "obligation" is what is causing the dilemma. Otherwise I'd just take a look at it in person and decide. But yeah, I like the Somec and really wasn't looking to sell it (I just bought it!)

Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
Not sure I'd trade a Somec for a De Rosa though.

My advice to the OP: Flip a coin. Be sure to throw it really high in the air. While it's in the air, take note of how you're hoping it will land. That will tell you what you really want to do. Ignore the result of the coin toss.
Are you saying that because you consider a Somec to be less common/more desirable? And good advice on the coin toss, which I don't even have to do as my gut is telling me to stick with the Somec.

Only doubts are being caused by the slightly better fit of the De Rosa (just one cm difference), and that I've been reading that some people are head over heels crazy about their De Rosa Primatos.
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Old 12-04-20, 02:12 PM
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Ok, let's try to get some pics going, just for the sake of it. Starting with the De Rosa:






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Old 12-04-20, 02:15 PM
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And now the Somec:






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Old 12-04-20, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
The problem is that he doesn't actually have the DeRosa yet. He would have to buy it, just so that we can do the swap. It's a little strange, but this guy is also a pretty strange character. His whole quest for a new bike was spurred by some crazy story about a homeless guy threatening him with a machete and slamming his current De Rosa Primato into the ground repeatedly. Yeah, you can't make this stuff up.

As for the paint, I don't mind the condition at all. It's very rough, but I kinda like that (I could ride it carefree, and it still looks nice to me). My issue is possible damage to the structure/structural integrity. Let me get going on those pics...
Originally Posted by brian3069 View Post
This seems overly complicated. What happens if you don't want the DeRossa after seeing it in person, will you feel obligated to make the trade anyway. I wouldn't touch this deal with a ten foot pole. If you want him to have the Somec, sell it to him and find something else to buy.
I'm with brian3069. This all sounds too hinky for my comfort. Enjoy the pretty Somec.
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Old 12-04-20, 02:35 PM
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I dont know you. Still kinda new here and frankly don't know the vibe of this forum much yet either.

But that Somec is beautiful. Objectively, I'd say keep the Somec.
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Old 12-04-20, 02:50 PM
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That seat lug is nasty. If you had plans to send it to some primo painter right away, then go for it because lugs. Otherwise keep the Somec.
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Old 12-04-20, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
Are you saying that because you consider a Somec to be less common/more desirable?
Yeah. De Rosa's are great. I have a De Rosa, and I don't have a Somec, so maybe that's a grass-is-greener kind of thing, but the few Somec's I've seen have been amazing.
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Old 12-04-20, 04:24 PM
  #21  
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The symmetric paint loss and paint creases on the De Rosa would make me worry it's due to some sort of damage. Yikes. Keep the gorgeous Somec.
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Old 12-04-20, 05:55 PM
  #22  
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Generally, trades are a bad idea. Someone gets shorted. I think it would be you in this case. That Somec is nice.
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Old 12-04-20, 06:54 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
Thanks all for the advice. I've decided I will post a few pics (just give me a little bit, since I'm a work). In the meantime, a couple of key details below.



The problem is that he doesn't actually have the DeRosa yet. He would have to buy it, just so that we can do the swap. It's a little strange, but this guy is also a pretty strange character. His whole quest for a new bike was spurred by some crazy story about a homeless guy threatening him with a machete and slamming his current De Rosa Primato into the ground repeatedly. Yeah, you can't make this stuff up.

As for the paint, I don't mind the condition at all. It's very rough, but I kinda like that (I could ride it carefree, and it still looks nice to me). My issue is possible damage to the structure/structural integrity. Let me get going on those pics...
NON STARTER, period.

This is way to convoluted to have a good outcome.

IF the other guy wants to take the chance and buy the De Rosa, hope you fall in love with it and want to deal on it then by all means he can do so, ALL ON HIM, again, period.

Caveat Emptor!
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Old 12-04-20, 07:48 PM
  #24  
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I'd say keep the Somec and if you really want a De Rosa wait for a nicer one to appear. Just my .02.
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Old 12-04-20, 08:02 PM
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I think if this was a poll, 90% of the community would say keep the Somec.
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