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-   -   Mystery 1972 Schwinn Paramount P13 frame (https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/1219367-mystery-1972-schwinn-paramount-p13-frame.html)

Fairview 12-12-20 02:00 PM

Mystery 1972 Schwinn Paramount P13 frame
 
Got a little mystery I hope Paramount guys can figure out for me.

This 1972 frame seems to be a P13 road racing frame, but it has the cable housing stops for the rear brake cable welded to the top tube. All the P13s that I can find and remember don’t have the cable housing stops but use the 3 Campagnolo cable clamps on the top tube with full length housing.

The curve of the front fork is definitely P13, and there are no eyelets on the dropouts as expected with a P13. The chrome seems original as do the remaining decals.

Was this cable stop housing set up an optional configuration? I didn’t see that as an option on the order form. I’m getting ready to put this bike back together and I would like to know if it is legit.

Thanks, Jeff


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...566425aff.jpeg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...858ee2cc8.jpeg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5a8725020.jpeg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...be3e5ad96.jpeg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d4d06a4fb.jpeg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...db8b57824.jpeg

trainman999 12-12-20 06:58 PM

My guess would be a factory mistake, remember its bike boom they are making them sa fast as they can

dddd 12-12-20 07:02 PM

What is correct about this is that the stops are on the left side, so definitely intended for use with the Campag sidepulls.

Paramounts could always be custom-ordered, I believe parts changes and even factory frame mods were on the table at that time.

thinktubes 12-12-20 08:42 PM

My 1981 Superior has guides exactly like that.

cudak888 12-12-20 11:07 PM


Originally Posted by dddd (Post 21830030)
What is correct about this is that the stops are on the left side, so definitely intended for use with the Campag sidepulls.

Paramounts could always be custom-ordered, I believe parts changes and even factory frame mods were on the table at that time.

Agreed. Someone must have ordered a chrome P13 and wanted the convenience of the earlier P-series (and then-current P15) brazed-on cable stops - complete with left-side routing, which is contrary to the right-side routing that Schwinn used for the P15/10 centerpull models.

I thought about this myself when I used to own both a '70 P13 (first gen) and a second-gen '72 P13, both in chrome. The Campagnolo top tube clips may have been the trend at the time (and allow for cable routing flexibility), but they're a hell of a lot fussier and clutter up what's otherwise a neat top tube.

Also - I can't remember off the top of my head - but were the stock Paramount P15 guides slotted by '72?

-Kurt

jish1969 12-13-20 04:13 PM

My 1970 P15 has slotted cable housings, on the right side if that helps...

dddd 12-13-20 05:43 PM


Originally Posted by jish1969 (Post 21831074)
My 1970 P15 has slotted cable housings, on the right side if that helps...

Yes, and certainly most all that came before, including my 1966 Paramount Deluxe.

These typically all had Weinman centerpull brakesets, but the Campag sidepulls require left-side routing (or clips and drop-bolts if the bike is being retrofitted, see below).

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0427eb3031.jpg

cudak888 12-13-20 08:53 PM


Originally Posted by jish1969 (Post 21831074)
My 1970 P15 has slotted cable housings, on the right side if that helps...

Ok, that makes these fittings par for the course.

For some reason, I seem to think of my '61 Paramount as not having slots, but it might be that I haven't looked at it in so long that my memory of it fails me.


Originally Posted by dddd (Post 21831183)
Yes, and certainly most all that came before, including my 1966 Paramount Deluxe.

These typically all had Weinman centerpull brakesets, but the Campag sidepulls require left-side routing (or clips and drop-bolts if the bike is being retrofitted, see below).

The second-generation P13 that the OP has would have been spec'ed with Campagnolo sidepulls from factory and top tube cable clamps. No drop bolts or cable stops. The right-side routing is an oddity for the revised P13.

-Kurt

pastorbobnlnh 12-14-20 05:57 AM

My memory is very foggy about who actually built many of the 1970's chrome Paramount frames, but, IIRC, most were contracted out and not made in the Chicago Paramount Cage. The frame builder's last name began with a "M" and he was based in Wisconsin. Maitland? or something similar? If so, didn't he usually stamp the bottom of the BB shell with some identifying marks? Jeff have you checked to see if anything is stamped in that location?

I hope my memory is not faltering too much. I never paid much attention since my '71 P13 was brazed in the Chicago Cage. (It celebrates its 50th in March. How cool is that!?!)

As always, a chrome Paramount is always very special, and when it has an unusual feature, it is even more so!

Fairview 12-14-20 07:02 AM


Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh (Post 21831732)
My memory is very foggy about who actually built many of the 1970's chrome Paramount frames, but, IIRC, most were contracted out and not made in the Chicago Paramount Cage. The frame builder's last name began with a "M" and he was based in Wisconsin. Maitland? or something similar? If so, didn't he usually stamp the bottom of the BB shell with some identifying marks? Jeff have you checked to see if anything is stamped in that location?

I hope my memory is not faltering too much. I never paid much attention since my '71 P13 was brazed in the Chicago Cage. (It celebrates its 50th in March. How cool is that!?!)

As always, a chrome Paramount is always very special, and when it has an unusual feature, it is even more so!

Good Morning,

Thanks for the great information and insights. I could have looked at this frame for months and never noticed and appreciated the difference that these cable stops are on the left and not the right.

I am trying to get this bike finished before the end of the year and will post some follow up pictures.

And Bob, really good to hear from you, hope all is going well! This frame doesn’t have any stamping on the BB shell. You are remembering correctly about stamping. I had another bike that was stamped and built by Don Maitland in Racine. That was stamped P2.

Jeff

p.s. I posted a nice original paint Paramount frame and fork for sale on our for sale forum if any of you want a winter project..


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2e575bcec.jpeg

Sierra 12-14-20 07:11 AM

Pastorbob...this from the Waterford website:
Starting in 1971, Schwinn outsourced excess Paramount production to Pioneer Manufacturing of Racine, Wisconsin, owned by Don Mainland. Don was an accomplished bike racer as well as successful industrialist. After racing in the midwest, he raced in Japan’s Kierin circuit in the early 50’s. He then returned to the US, where he set the coast to coast cross country record, which stood for eleven years. Don’s firm supplied the 1972 Olympic frames and Schwinn Superiors during the 1980’s. His tooling firm supplied Schwinn’s manufacturing all the way until 1990 in Mississippi.
During the 70’s, Paramount sales rose to 1,200 units annually. Schwinn supplemented Paramount production with contract-built frames by Don Mainland and Roger Nelson. Don and Roger, both riders from the 40’s and 50’s, had built up a successful tooling business in Racine, Wisconsin. He already supplied tooling to Schwinn. At Paramount’s peak in the mid-70’s, 10 frames per week came from Wisconsin and 15 from Chicago. There is no obvious way to distinguish the Wisconsin-built Paramounts from those built at the Schwinn factory. Serial numbers were issued after the bikes were built.

I seem to remember hearing that the Mainland frames had a P on the bottom bracket indicating Pioneer Manufacturing, but Waterford doesn't mention this.

pastorbobnlnh 12-14-20 07:58 AM

I'm so glad my memory has not been too faulty. :innocent: "Maitland" is really close to "Mainland!"

I agree with all the others who have mentioned earlier, must be a custom order for the left-hand rear brake cable stops. Sweet find for Fairview !

Sierra great to see you are still posting here on C&V. I appreciate your knowledge and the information shared above about Don Mainland and Pioneer in WI.

cudak888 12-14-20 08:42 AM


Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh (Post 21831832)
I'm so glad my memory has not been too faulty. :innocent: "Maitland" is really close to "Mainland!"

I agree with all the others who have mentioned earlier, must be a custom order for the left-hand rear brake cable stops. Sweet find for Fairview !

Sierra great to see you are still posting here on C&V. I appreciate your knowledge and the information shared above about Don Mainland and Pioneer in WI.

It's Mainland ;)

More Don Mainland / Paramount info

-Kurt


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