Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Mystery 1972 Schwinn Paramount P13 frame

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Mystery 1972 Schwinn Paramount P13 frame

Old 12-12-20, 02:00 PM
  #1  
Fairview 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Virginia
Posts: 183

Bikes: 1971 and 1972 Schwinn Paramount

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 61 Post(s)
Liked 16 Times in 7 Posts
Mystery 1972 Schwinn Paramount P13 frame

Got a little mystery I hope Paramount guys can figure out for me.

This 1972 frame seems to be a P13 road racing frame, but it has the cable housing stops for the rear brake cable welded to the top tube. All the P13s that I can find and remember don’t have the cable housing stops but use the 3 Campagnolo cable clamps on the top tube with full length housing.

The curve of the front fork is definitely P13, and there are no eyelets on the dropouts as expected with a P13. The chrome seems original as do the remaining decals.

Was this cable stop housing set up an optional configuration? I didn’t see that as an option on the order form. I’m getting ready to put this bike back together and I would like to know if it is legit.

Thanks, Jeff








Last edited by Fairview; 12-12-20 at 02:09 PM.
Fairview is offline  
Likes For Fairview:
Old 12-12-20, 06:58 PM
  #2  
trainman999
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 363

Bikes: 83 Schwinn Superior, 86 Paramount,86 Madison,87 Cimeron,86 Nishiki Linear

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 164 Post(s)
Liked 89 Times in 56 Posts
My guess would be a factory mistake, remember its bike boom they are making them sa fast as they can
trainman999 is offline  
Old 12-12-20, 07:02 PM
  #3  
dddd
Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race
 
dddd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Northern California
Posts: 8,031

Bikes: Cheltenham-Pederson racer, Boulder F/S Paris-Roubaix, Varsity racer, '52 Christophe, '62 Continental, '92 Merckx, '75 Limongi, '76 Presto, '72 Gitane SC, '71 Schwinn SS, etc.

Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1078 Post(s)
Liked 511 Times in 365 Posts
What is correct about this is that the stops are on the left side, so definitely intended for use with the Campag sidepulls.

Paramounts could always be custom-ordered, I believe parts changes and even factory frame mods were on the table at that time.
dddd is offline  
Likes For dddd:
Old 12-12-20, 08:42 PM
  #4  
thinktubes 
weapons-grade bolognium
 
thinktubes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Across the street from Chicago
Posts: 5,560

Bikes: Battaglin Cromor, Ciocc Designer 84, Schwinn Superior 1981

Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 711 Post(s)
Liked 879 Times in 430 Posts
My 1981 Superior has guides exactly like that.
thinktubes is offline  
Old 12-12-20, 11:07 PM
  #5  
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 26,600

Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com

Mentioned: 74 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1560 Post(s)
Liked 1,806 Times in 1,045 Posts
Originally Posted by dddd View Post
What is correct about this is that the stops are on the left side, so definitely intended for use with the Campag sidepulls.

Paramounts could always be custom-ordered, I believe parts changes and even factory frame mods were on the table at that time.
Agreed. Someone must have ordered a chrome P13 and wanted the convenience of the earlier P-series (and then-current P15) brazed-on cable stops - complete with left-side routing, which is contrary to the right-side routing that Schwinn used for the P15/10 centerpull models.

I thought about this myself when I used to own both a '70 P13 (first gen) and a second-gen '72 P13, both in chrome. The Campagnolo top tube clips may have been the trend at the time (and allow for cable routing flexibility), but they're a hell of a lot fussier and clutter up what's otherwise a neat top tube.

Also - I can't remember off the top of my head - but were the stock Paramount P15 guides slotted by '72?

-Kurt
__________________








Last edited by cudak888; 12-12-20 at 11:11 PM.
cudak888 is offline  
Likes For cudak888:
Old 12-13-20, 04:13 PM
  #6  
jish1969
Senior Member
 
jish1969's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Dryden, NY
Posts: 428

Bikes: 1970 Schwinn Paramount P-15, 2013 Trek Stache 7, 2018 Fuji Jari 1.3, 2018 Diamondback El Oso Dos, 197* Charles Roberts

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked 18 Times in 5 Posts
My 1970 P15 has slotted cable housings, on the right side if that helps...
jish1969 is offline  
Old 12-13-20, 05:43 PM
  #7  
dddd
Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race
 
dddd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Northern California
Posts: 8,031

Bikes: Cheltenham-Pederson racer, Boulder F/S Paris-Roubaix, Varsity racer, '52 Christophe, '62 Continental, '92 Merckx, '75 Limongi, '76 Presto, '72 Gitane SC, '71 Schwinn SS, etc.

Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1078 Post(s)
Liked 511 Times in 365 Posts
Originally Posted by jish1969 View Post
My 1970 P15 has slotted cable housings, on the right side if that helps...
Yes, and certainly most all that came before, including my 1966 Paramount Deluxe.

These typically all had Weinman centerpull brakesets, but the Campag sidepulls require left-side routing (or clips and drop-bolts if the bike is being retrofitted, see below).

dddd is offline  
Likes For dddd:
Old 12-13-20, 08:53 PM
  #8  
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 26,600

Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com

Mentioned: 74 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1560 Post(s)
Liked 1,806 Times in 1,045 Posts
Originally Posted by jish1969 View Post
My 1970 P15 has slotted cable housings, on the right side if that helps...
Ok, that makes these fittings par for the course.

For some reason, I seem to think of my '61 Paramount as not having slots, but it might be that I haven't looked at it in so long that my memory of it fails me.

Originally Posted by dddd View Post
Yes, and certainly most all that came before, including my 1966 Paramount Deluxe.

These typically all had Weinman centerpull brakesets, but the Campag sidepulls require left-side routing (or clips and drop-bolts if the bike is being retrofitted, see below).
The second-generation P13 that the OP has would have been spec'ed with Campagnolo sidepulls from factory and top tube cable clamps. No drop bolts or cable stops. The right-side routing is an oddity for the revised P13.

-Kurt
__________________







cudak888 is offline  
Old 12-14-20, 05:57 AM
  #9  
pastorbobnlnh 
Freewheel Medic
 
pastorbobnlnh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ascending or Descending the NH Mountains NW of Concord!
Posts: 11,661

Bikes: Snazzy* Schwinns, Classy Cannondales, & a Lonely '83 Santana Tandem (* Ed.)

Mentioned: 100 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 710 Post(s)
Liked 332 Times in 222 Posts
My memory is very foggy about who actually built many of the 1970's chrome Paramount frames, but, IIRC, most were contracted out and not made in the Chicago Paramount Cage. The frame builder's last name began with a "M" and he was based in Wisconsin. Maitland? or something similar? If so, didn't he usually stamp the bottom of the BB shell with some identifying marks? Jeff have you checked to see if anything is stamped in that location?

I hope my memory is not faltering too much. I never paid much attention since my '71 P13 was brazed in the Chicago Cage. (It celebrates its 50th in March. How cool is that!?!)

As always, a chrome Paramount is always very special, and when it has an unusual feature, it is even more so!
__________________
Bob
Dreaming about riding in NH's summertime!

Visit my websites:
FreeWheelSpa.com orpastorbobnlnh.com
pastorbobnlnh is offline  
Old 12-14-20, 07:02 AM
  #10  
Fairview 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Virginia
Posts: 183

Bikes: 1971 and 1972 Schwinn Paramount

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 61 Post(s)
Liked 16 Times in 7 Posts
Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh View Post
My memory is very foggy about who actually built many of the 1970's chrome Paramount frames, but, IIRC, most were contracted out and not made in the Chicago Paramount Cage. The frame builder's last name began with a "M" and he was based in Wisconsin. Maitland? or something similar? If so, didn't he usually stamp the bottom of the BB shell with some identifying marks? Jeff have you checked to see if anything is stamped in that location?

I hope my memory is not faltering too much. I never paid much attention since my '71 P13 was brazed in the Chicago Cage. (It celebrates its 50th in March. How cool is that!?!)

As always, a chrome Paramount is always very special, and when it has an unusual feature, it is even more so!
Good Morning,

Thanks for the great information and insights. I could have looked at this frame for months and never noticed and appreciated the difference that these cable stops are on the left and not the right.

I am trying to get this bike finished before the end of the year and will post some follow up pictures.

And Bob, really good to hear from you, hope all is going well! This frame doesn’t have any stamping on the BB shell. You are remembering correctly about stamping. I had another bike that was stamped and built by Don Maitland in Racine. That was stamped P2.

Jeff

p.s. I posted a nice original paint Paramount frame and fork for sale on our for sale forum if any of you want a winter project..


Fairview is offline  
Old 12-14-20, 07:11 AM
  #11  
Sierra
Uff Da!
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,077
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked 42 Times in 22 Posts
Pastorbob...this from the Waterford website:
Starting in 1971, Schwinn outsourced excess Paramount production to Pioneer Manufacturing of Racine, Wisconsin, owned by Don Mainland. Don was an accomplished bike racer as well as successful industrialist. After racing in the midwest, he raced in Japan’s Kierin circuit in the early 50’s. He then returned to the US, where he set the coast to coast cross country record, which stood for eleven years. Don’s firm supplied the 1972 Olympic frames and Schwinn Superiors during the 1980’s. His tooling firm supplied Schwinn’s manufacturing all the way until 1990 in Mississippi.
During the 70’s, Paramount sales rose to 1,200 units annually. Schwinn supplemented Paramount production with contract-built frames by Don Mainland and Roger Nelson. Don and Roger, both riders from the 40’s and 50’s, had built up a successful tooling business in Racine, Wisconsin. He already supplied tooling to Schwinn. At Paramount’s peak in the mid-70’s, 10 frames per week came from Wisconsin and 15 from Chicago. There is no obvious way to distinguish the Wisconsin-built Paramounts from those built at the Schwinn factory. Serial numbers were issued after the bikes were built.

I seem to remember hearing that the Mainland frames had a P on the bottom bracket indicating Pioneer Manufacturing, but Waterford doesn't mention this.
Sierra is offline  
Likes For Sierra:
Old 12-14-20, 07:58 AM
  #12  
pastorbobnlnh 
Freewheel Medic
 
pastorbobnlnh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ascending or Descending the NH Mountains NW of Concord!
Posts: 11,661

Bikes: Snazzy* Schwinns, Classy Cannondales, & a Lonely '83 Santana Tandem (* Ed.)

Mentioned: 100 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 710 Post(s)
Liked 332 Times in 222 Posts
I'm so glad my memory has not been too faulty. "Maitland" is really close to "Mainland!"

I agree with all the others who have mentioned earlier, must be a custom order for the left-hand rear brake cable stops. Sweet find for Fairview !

Sierra great to see you are still posting here on C&V. I appreciate your knowledge and the information shared above about Don Mainland and Pioneer in WI.
__________________
Bob
Dreaming about riding in NH's summertime!

Visit my websites:
FreeWheelSpa.com orpastorbobnlnh.com
pastorbobnlnh is offline  
Old 12-14-20, 08:42 AM
  #13  
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 26,600

Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com

Mentioned: 74 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1560 Post(s)
Liked 1,806 Times in 1,045 Posts
Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh View Post
I'm so glad my memory has not been too faulty. "Maitland" is really close to "Mainland!"

I agree with all the others who have mentioned earlier, must be a custom order for the left-hand rear brake cable stops. Sweet find for Fairview !

Sierra great to see you are still posting here on C&V. I appreciate your knowledge and the information shared above about Don Mainland and Pioneer in WI.
It's Mainland

More Don Mainland / Paramount info

-Kurt
__________________







cudak888 is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.