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My Bernard Carre Special Competition

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My Bernard Carre Special Competition

Old 12-19-20, 02:54 AM
  #1  
Addamsmith
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My Bernard Carre Special Competition

My Bernard Carre Special Competition
would love to find out more about it like year and if rare.




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Old 12-19-20, 08:47 AM
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Looks interesting- lack of braze ons suggest earlier than later.
I have seen a few with vertical dropouts.
I would reward it with new paint.
not powdercoat
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Old 12-19-20, 08:48 AM
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-----

dating -

appears could not be earlier than '73 nor later than '75

presence of Jubile cable guide suggests that it may have been last kitted with a Freres Huret gear ensemble

member @CV-6 will be along shortly with his usual outstanding help


-----
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Old 12-19-20, 10:01 AM
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Nice frame Addam. Diamond cut-outs in Prugnat S lugs suggests a top tier Carre...and with his stamp on willow-leaf seat stay caps...very nice (not all bikes with willow-leaf caps are from Carre so always nice to see that) . The vertical dropouts are pretty unique further suggesting to me its a custom. With brazed on cable guides but no water bottle bosses I think mid- 70s. Carre switched to another seat stay cap in 80s, What is the stack height?
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Old 12-19-20, 10:26 AM
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Excellent find! I'm a Carre´enthusiast, but most of what I can share is largely repeating what the experts on here have shared with me. Those others will be along soon enough to offer more insightful commentary. Meanwhile, this is my Bernard Carre´, honestly one of my all time favorite bikes.


Mine is outfitted with SLJ mechs, Stronglight crank, and (interestingly) MAFAC cantilever brakes. Mine is, at a guess, late 60's/early 70's, and likely precedes yours only by a couple years. It rides great, as I'm sure yours will as well. Are you able to discern who Carre´ built your frame for? I can't decypher the decal remnants.
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Old 12-19-20, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by AZORCH View Post
Excellent find! I'm a Carre´enthusiast, but most of what I can share is largely repeating what the experts on here have shared with me. Those others will be along soon enough to offer more insightful commentary. Meanwhile, this is my Bernard Carre´, honestly one of my all time favorite bikes.


Mine is outfitted with SLJ mechs, Stronglight crank, and (interestingly) MAFAC cantilever brakes. Mine is, at a guess, late 60's/early 70's, and likely precedes yours only by a couple years. It rides great, as I'm sure yours will as well. Are you able to discern who Carre´ built your frame for? I can't decypher the decal remnants.
That is gorgeous. I love the look of the Stronglight crankset and your stunning paint job. It appears to be geared like a stock PX-10 of the same era, 52-45 / 14-21 -- a bit stiff for my abilities and local terrain.
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Old 12-19-20, 10:54 AM
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In fact, the 53/45 Stronglight and 14/21 rear came off a PX-10. Gearing is indeed stout, but I can slowly struggle up the nearby bluffs as long as I pretend I'm still a 70's era teen.

OP: what plans are you formulating for your bike? I'm not one to often go the route of re-paint but yours may call for it. If you're so inclined, I actually recreated the Carre´ head badge artwork for one of the decal makers and I'd be happy to provide a file for you.
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Old 12-19-20, 11:44 AM
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If you're considering a repaint, I'd find someone who can do braze-ons. Shifter, derailleur cable guides and stops, and bottle cages wouldn't cost much to put on.

I agree that this one is worth a proper wet paint. If the price scares you off, Groody Brothers can do that work for you and powder coat it nicely, along with applying decals and clear coat. Here's one that was done for me:



Up close you can tell it's been powder coated, from 5-10 feet away it's had to tell the difference between wet paint and powder coat.


Cleaning it up, removing rust, and touching up the paint is a zero cost option. It's fine to ride as is. Another option would be to rattle can it yourself, get the decals, and clear coat it.
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Old 12-19-20, 03:12 PM
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Nice find. I pretty much agree with Markeologist with the exception of early 70s for the dating based on the position (under TT) of the brake cable stops. Also think it is more likely a private label bike shop build rather than custom. A good look at the remains of the head badge and whatever that is on the down tube could tell us more. On closer inspection, the remains of the head badge kind of looks like Bertin. Might be wishful thinking on my part. You don't see all that many Carré with 1060 drops. I would paint and not powder coat. But that is my preference. Click the link in my signature and you will find some Carré photos. One below, a later frame.

B. Carre July 2016 by L Travers, on Flickr
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Old 12-19-20, 05:06 PM
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A few more of my B.Carre


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Old 12-19-20, 05:25 PM
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Addamsmith-

As cv-6 said, it's likely a product for a smaller shop although Carre also built for firms like Gitane, Lejeune and, for 1 year, Bertin. It is one of the higher end bikes because Carre used the diamond cut outs on his own bikes and only the highest end production bikes. It looks like a later 70s period. The photo below is a restored Carre/Bertin in Reynolds 531 which was Carre's preferred tubeset until the 80s when he switched to Vitus. Some Carre history and the restoration process is detailed here: https://bertinclassiccycles.wordpres...-andre-bertin/


I quite agree with AZORCH that the Carre is one of my most preferred bikes.
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Old 12-19-20, 05:58 PM
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Thanks everyone
i contemplating selling it or trading for a top end Gitane from 50s to 70s.
I have another carre and several Raphael Geminiani
but im trying to complete my Gitane collection.
If some one has a early 50s 60s Gitane top end frame they may want to consider swapping please let me know.
i may end up restoring, it did come with Campagnolo bottom bracket and headset that looked original.
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Old 12-19-20, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by CV-6 View Post
Nice find. I pretty much agree with Markeologist with the exception of early 70s for the dating based on the position (under TT) of the brake cable stops. Also think it is more likely a private label bike shop build rather than custom. A good look at the remains of the head badge and whatever that is on the down tube could tell us more. On closer inspection, the remains of the head badge kind of looks like Bertin. Might be wishful thinking on my part. You don't see all that many Carré with 1060 drops. I would paint and not powder coat. But that is my preference. Click the link in my signature and you will find some Carré photos. One below, a later frame.

B. Carre July 2016 by L Travers, on Flickr
Just so I'm clear Lynn, are you thinking its a early 70s because the cable stops are under top tube? No argument from me you know your stuff, I'll add that to my mental notes! Local shop makes sense too with your pointing out head badge...but that could still be a custom, a local shop owner ordering a top tier bike to represent his shop. As far as Bertin, I'm sure others will weigh in but has anybody seen a Bertin with the B Carre stamp on cap? Not saying they don't occur, I'm just not sure I've seen the stamp on a Bertin.

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Old 12-19-20, 06:15 PM
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Is the head badge (decal) Carre's own?

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Old 12-19-20, 06:21 PM
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In 1972, the Carre attributed LeJeunes had under the top tube guides on the left when intended for a Campagnolo or same sided brake.
What tempers my declaration as to year is the fork crown.
Suggest you reference that. I have a C.N.C. from 1975-76 that has a similar crown.
You might brush up on your French and inquire at the tontonvelo forum.

is there a brand of steerer on the fork?
Is the head tube seamed? Most of my Lejeunes have such.
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Old 12-19-20, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Markeologist View Post
Is the head badge (decal) Carre's own?

one variation, yes.
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Old 12-19-20, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by bertinjim View Post
Addamsmith-

As cv-6 said, it's likely a product for a smaller shop although Carre also built for firms like Gitane, Lejeune and, for 1 year, Bertin. It is one of the higher end bikes because Carre used the diamond cut outs on his own bikes and only the highest end production bikes. It looks like a later 70s period. The photo below is a restored Carre/Bertin in Reynolds 531 which was Carre's preferred tubeset until the 80s when he switched to Vitus. Some Carre history and the restoration process is detailed here: https://bertinclassiccycles.wordpres...-andre-bertin/


I quite agree with AZORCH that the Carre is one of my most preferred bikes.
Handsome bike, but must have seen a ghost and was scared to white from Black.
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Old 12-19-20, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by repechage View Post
one variation, yes.
I’m referring to the badge (what remains of it anyway) on Addam’s frame we are discussing.

Here is my Carre in progress. First gen Campy Record.
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Old 12-19-20, 06:34 PM
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This was scanned and cleaned up from a rarely seen Carre badge. "Rare," because he seems to have seldom branded his frames other than stamping the leaf.


I recreated the art in a vector file for one of the decal sellers. They sent me a couple of the decals, although I created a waterslide version for my bike. Incidentally, the gray color is actually a silver mylar. Here is the recreated art:
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Old 12-19-20, 06:45 PM
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sorry I wasn't clearer...I know these are Carre's badge...and I know they are rarely seen...is the badge on Addam's Carre we are looking at here
one of these rarely seen badges?


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Old 12-19-20, 08:45 PM
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Not much to work from
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Old 12-19-20, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Markeologist View Post
Just so I'm clear Lynn, are you thinking its a early 70s because the cable stops are under top tube? No argument from me you know your stuff, I'll add that to my mental notes! Local shop makes sense too with your pointing out head badge...but that could still be a custom, a local shop owner ordering a top tier bike to represent his shop. As far as Bertin, I'm sure others will weigh in but has anybody seen a Bertin with the B Carre stamp on cap? Not saying they don't occur, I'm just not sure I've seen the stamp on a Bertin.
I should preface my comments each time with this is what I have seen or learned from others. Norris Lockley is probably the person who knows the most of BC and even he says he learns something all the time. Please do not confuse me with an expert or the final say. BC is a bit of a mystery man and a prolific builder.

That out of the way, yes to the cable stops under the TT. The "Carré built" Lejeunes carried the under the TT stops until the association ended in 1975. That date from a person who worked for the Lejeune team. So it could run into mid 70s. And upon further consideration, I think the fork crown moves it that way. AFA the head badge, I would really like a closer shot. But it does not appear to me to be the head badge AZORCH shared. I see some yellow. You don't see that headbadge very often on a frame. Kind of like the L.B. Carré markings that pop up from time to time. Those head badges are available from a firm in the UK. They do a nice job on them.

Bertin: I cannot say I have seen a Bertin with the B. Carré stamp on the seat cap. As I said, it might be wishful thinking on my part. I do have a Carré built Bertin but it is a C35. And oddly enough, when I queried Norris Lockley on it, he said he had the exact same frame, same color. My Bertin is nearing completion.

Pic below is a Columbus frame (ala Markeologist) that is at Franklin Frame for repair and refinish. Note on my frame it has all the extra cost chroming, but not the square cut outs of a top of the line frame. This frame was a shop frame. I could make out Abel Borne on the DT panel.

Bernard Carré/Abel Borne 1 by L Travers, on Flickr
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Last edited by CV-6; 04-07-21 at 11:20 PM.
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Old 12-19-20, 10:41 PM
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Close up of head tube decals

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Old 12-20-20, 12:09 AM
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Whatever that head badge is, it is not Bernard Carré.
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Old 12-20-20, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by CV-6 View Post
I should preface my comments each time with this is what I have seen or learned from others. Norris Lockley is probably the person who knows the most of BC and even he says he learns something all the time. Please do not confuse me with an expert or the final say. BC is a bit of a mystery man and a prolific builder.

That out of the way, yes to the cable stops under the TT. The "Carré built" Lejeunes carried the under the TT stops until the association ended in 1975. That date from a person who worked for the Lejeune team. So it could run into mid 70s. And upon further consideration, I think the fork crown moves it that way. AFA the head badge, I would really like a closer shot. But it does not appear to me to be the head badge AZORCH shared. I see some yellow. You don't see that headbadge very often on a frame. Kind of like the L.B. Carré markings that pop up from time to time. Those head badges are available from a firm in the UK. They do a nice job on them.

Bertin: I cannot say I have seen a Bertin with the B. Carré stamp on the seat cap. As I said, it might be wishful thinking on my part. I do have a Carré built Bertin but it is a C34. And oddly enough, when I queried Norris Lockley on it, he said he had the exact same frame, same color. My Bertin is nearing completion.

Pic below is a Columbus frame (ala Markeologist) that is at Franklin Frame for repair and refinish. Note on my frame it has all the extra cost chroming, but not the square cut outs of a top of the line frame. This frame was a shop frame. I could make out Abel Borne on the DT panel.

Bernard Carré/Abel Borne 1 by L Travers, on Flickr
Thanks Lynn and I know of Norris and some of his Carre's including his team bikes with initials stamped on seat stay cap. If I recall, he has both a JA (Anquetil) and a LA (Aimar) stamped frames...grails.
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