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9 speeds w/ C&R rear derailleur?

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9 speeds w/ C&R rear derailleur?

Old 01-11-21, 11:48 AM
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rando_couche
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9 speeds w/ C&R rear derailleur?

Are there any C&V rear derailleurs out there with enough travel for a 9-speed cassette? Failing that, how about a modern long-cage rear derailleur that won't look shockingly out of place on a '78 Jack Taylor?

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Old 01-11-21, 11:56 AM
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Sure! A lot of old Suntours can do it. Triple pulley LePree for sure. The VGT and some models of XC Sport won't, in my experience. Cyclone M2 needed a little filing on the low gear limit screw stop, but it will do it as well, I have one on my Vitus 979 right now because it's very lightweight. I think I did 9sp with Nuovo Record as well, but I can't quite remember if that was 8 or 9. Those swing a long way if you back out the limit screws.

Usually the problem with the old Suntours is getting the big cog. So it helps if your dropouts are thin, because this positions the derailleur further inboard. Definitely difficult with a claw mount.

Another thing to consider is the range of the cassette. A lot of old rear derailleurs don't clear huge cogs, and the chain gap may be wildly uneven between the bottom and the top, which can lead to poor shifting with modern flexible bushingless chains.
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Old 01-11-21, 12:00 PM
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I have used a Duopar on 9 speed. It didn't shift very well, but it had enough travel. I suspect other derailleurs would also work. My friction downtube shifter is maxed out, but it works.

I would suggest a Sun XCD as a modern replacement with a classic look.
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Old 01-11-21, 12:16 PM
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a 9spd is not much wider than a 7spd, and i've successfully run early/mid 80's derailleurs on a 7spd with no issue. there's still plenty of limit screw left. if i may ask, why a 9spd cluster? if you decide it's important to you to use an early derailleur, perhaps make the 9spd into 8 thereby reducing the travel to that of a 7spd arrangement. i understand, though, you'll lose a gear. so, it's just a thought if you're doing 9spd because it's what you have. i'm in that boat often enough myself

personally, i can't see any modern derailleur looking terribly at home on such an older frame. but, that's my tastes. maybe a cyclone or deerhead or similar vintage? those would look good? and, though i've never actually tried, i'm 99% certain either of the former two can run 8spd....which is just as wide as a 9. i suspect your bigger issue will be the shifter travel itself
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Old 01-11-21, 12:22 PM
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I’ve used a Campagnolo Super Record RD on a 10 speed cassette with a 28 tooth big cog.
Shifters had to travel a whole bunch, but it worked.
Shimano 6207/6208 and 1050 work well, too.
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Old 01-11-21, 12:35 PM
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My Bianchi Trofeo is happy with its Campagnolo NR on either an 8 or 9 speed. Can't remember. Need to check and get a clearer picture. Shifters are SunTour barcons. Don

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Old 01-11-21, 01:29 PM
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A lot of this depends on the installed positioning of the cassette left-to-right, usually as close to the dropout as possible gives the best chances of hitting all gears, but you many then have to bevel the outer edges of the tips of the teeth on the 2nd-smallest cog in order to achieve a crisp shift to your tallest gear.

One fine example of all this is the Allvit, which can be a challenge to make shift over even a standard 6s Uniglide freewheel. But can be done!
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Old 01-11-21, 03:16 PM
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A Wolftooth Roadlink may do the trick.
Does not increase horizontal range, but adds about 20 mm to the vertical “drop,” and that’s just a rough description.
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Old 01-11-21, 04:35 PM
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A SunTour VGT will not only shift 7 but index as well. Don't know about 9.

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Old 01-11-21, 09:36 PM
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With friction shifters I can usually squeeze out one more "speed" than the rear derailleur was designed to cover.

I have a couple of 7-speed long cage RDs that are nearly identical -- Exage 500 CX and Deore LX -- and with friction shifters can cover an 8-speed cassette. But in index mode the RD will kick out of the biggest cog to the next smallest under pressure. There's a little nubbin inside the RD that limits the swing. It's possible a moto tool could be used to carefully grind down those nubbins to clear room for the RD swing with indexed shifting but I haven't tried that yet.

I have a couple of Shimano 600 Tricolor/Ultegra RDs that are nominally 8-speed. I plan to try one with a 10 speed cassette just to see how much it will cover in both friction and index modes. No particular reason, just curious. I already have 8 and 10 speed Dura Ace RDs, but I'm curious to see how far the Tricolor/Ultegra RDs will swing.
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Old 01-11-21, 11:18 PM
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I think the crucial question is: do you intend to use it with index shifters? If so, I would find an early '90's Shimano, either Deore or Deore XT. Conservative appearance, durable as cockroaches.

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Old 01-12-21, 01:19 AM
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So true, the DX and it's predecessor (the Deore MT60 or whatever) can even be re-badged to fit a vintage theme from a different country.

On this bike, I'd squeezed in a 6-speed freewheel that nearly reached to the dropout, and was able to just get the original Simplex Prestige to reach that smallest cog reliably. But as soon as I'd got it dialed in, it seemed to go downhill from there as the plastic derailer's pivots wore and the cage just wouldn't pull outward as far anymore. So rather than chasing my tail with successive additions to the driveside axle stack, I decided to find a nice "modern" derailer to put one of my Simplex decals on.

The old Deore MT60 requires more cable pull than the older derailers, so I simply wired the cable to the other side of the pinch bolt, shortening the lever for more travel actuation to the cage.
Nobody bats an eyelash and it better matches my previous all-metal front derailer replacement!
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Old 01-12-21, 03:28 AM
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My suntour derailer shifts a 9 speed cassette quite well. The shifts are remarkably smooth and responsive under power too.

the derailer is maxed out in first gear with the limit screw out all the way. It shifts into 9th, but the chain rubs against the dropout .

Going from 120mm OLD to 130mm can be done, but many don't suggest it. You will destroy your rear hub bearings if you dont cold set your frame within 1 or 2 mm on each side.

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Old 01-12-21, 05:33 AM
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This is a new 10sp derailleur that would not look out of place on a classic bike and will shift up to a 34t cog
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Old 01-12-21, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Moisture View Post
Going from 120mm OLD to 130mm can be done, but many don't suggest it. You will destroy your rear hub bearings if you dont cold set your frame within 1 or 2 mm on each side.
Forgive my bluntness but one has nothing to do with the other. A properly adjusted axle will prevent any axial forces from impacting the bearings. The threads on the cone coupled with a properly tightened lock nut, prevent axial forces on the bearings unless the threads fail, which is a extremely low likelihood. So low that it would be described as "impossible." Compression of the axle has about the same likelihood.

Now the moment arm between the DO and the bearing location can cause an axle failure, if using a freewheel configured hub, with a bend of the axle at the bearing, causing failure. But we are discussing =>8 speed blocks which implies cassettes.
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Old 01-12-21, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Germany_chris View Post


This is a new 10sp derailleur that would not look out of place on a classic bike and will shift up to a 34t cog
campy.....of course
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Old 01-12-21, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by SJX426 View Post
Forgive my bluntness but one has nothing to do with the other. A properly adjusted axle will prevent any axial forces from impacting the bearings. The threads on the cone coupled with a properly tightened lock nut, prevent axial forces on the bearings unless the threads fail, which is a extremely low likelihood. So low that it would be described as "impossible." Compression of the axle has about the same likelihood.

Now the moment arm between the DO and the bearing location can cause an axle failure, if using a freewheel configured hub, with a bend of the axle at the bearing, causing failure. But we are discussing =>8 speed blocks which implies cassettes.
as i understand, if you don't cold set the frame, it can over stress and cause failure of the dropout. no?
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Old 01-12-21, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by thook View Post
campy.....of course
I prefer the shape of ergos but there’s so few silver components anymore we gotta take what we can get
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Old 01-12-21, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Germany_chris View Post
I prefer the shape of ergos but there’s so few silver components anymore we gotta take what we can get
well ....what i meant by my reply was in relation to what i'd posted earlier about a modern derailleur looking out of place. but, even when i made that reply i thought "possibly campy wouldn't" in the back of my mind. then, i saw your post and photo and sure enough... only campy could do it. it's just that campy styling. and, being that lustrous silver, of course!!

as for ergos, i hear you. but, could you not find some silver veloce? i got a set for a shimergo 8spd build. granted, it was several years ago
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Old 01-12-21, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by thook View Post
well ....what i meant by my reply was in relation to what i'd posted earlier about a modern derailleur looking out of place. but, even when i made that reply i thought "possibly campy wouldn't" in the back of my mind. then, i saw your post and photo and sure enough... only campy could do it. it's just that campy styling. and, being that lustrous silver, of course!!

as for ergos, i hear you. but, could you not find some silver veloce? i got a set for a shimergo 8spd build. granted, it was several years ago


I did silver Veloce but I want to run Shimano cassettes and hubs, Shimano has so many different cassettes and I can overhaul a Shimano hub in my sleep.
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Old 01-12-21, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Germany_chris View Post

I did silver Veloce but I want to run Shimano cassettes and hubs, Shimano has so many different cassettes and I can overhaul a Shimano hub in my sleep.
hence the shiftmate....i see

is that the bruce gordon?
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Old 01-12-21, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by thook View Post
as i understand, if you don't cold set the frame, it can over stress and cause failure of the dropout. no?
Drop outs and hubs are two different components. If you spread the frame only by installing the wheel, "springing" the frame, the only issue left is RD hanger alignment. No impact to hubs and the DO will align with the skewer pressure with only the RD hanger as an issue.
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Old 01-12-21, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by thook View Post
hence the shiftmate....i see

is that the bruce gordon?
That's the reason for the shift mate and the Chinese travel agents both work remarkably well..

Yes it's a late 80's Rock 'n Road



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Old 01-12-21, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by SJX426 View Post
Drop outs and hubs are two different components.
they are?

Originally Posted by SJX426 View Post
If you spread the frame only by installing the wheel, "springing" the frame, the only issue left is RD hanger alignment. No impact to hubs and the DO will align with the skewer pressure with only the RD hanger as an issue.
it seems you misunderstand my reply. i'm aware there's no impact to the hubs. not only have i read your reply on that , it doesn't mechanically make sense. my reply/question was simply because i've seen the aftermath (forum photos) of fractured brazing as a result of repeated stress using a wider than original hub/spacing without also spreading the frame. atleast it was postulated that was the reason for failure
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Old 01-12-21, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Germany_chris View Post
That's the reason for the shift mate and the Chinese travel agents both work remarkably well..

Yes it's a late 80's Rock 'n Road
envy
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