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-   -   TA 374 substitute? (https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/1222078-ta-374-substitute.html)

philbob57 01-21-21 05:55 PM

TA 374 substitute?
 
I've got a TA Cyclotouriste Pro 5 vis crankset with a TA BB and the standard double spindle (part number 344). I'd like to turn it into a triple, for which the 373 or 374 spindle is apparently right. I haven't been able to find a 373 at all, and the 374s I've found are either too expensive or too trashed for my taste. Are there any spindles from Stronglight or Nervar that would be a good fit?

The NDS BB threads were cross-threaded by the previous owner, so it's got and Italian TA cup to go with the English fixed cup, so I want to keep the cups.

I had an interest in the VO threadless BB, but they seem unable to tell me which one (spindle length) I should get.

I've got the necessary chain wheel and triple bolts.

Thanks.

steelbikeguy 01-21-21 06:18 PM

I keep having the urge to get a proper TA Cyclotouriste crank, but have always wondered what modern BB's would fit the crank taper. I suppose axle length is an issue too....

ummmm.... I don't know the dimensions of the TA axles, but this is a chart for the axle dimensions for Stronglight 93 and 99 of the mid 70's. Maybe you can compare the dimensions of the double chainring axle with your double chainring TA axle? If they are close, there's a decent chance the Stronglight triple axle could work.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...cbde194985.jpg

Plan A should be "wait for someone with experience to offer advice", of course. :)

Steve in Peoria
(I do have a SunXCD copy of the Cyclotouriste, though)

thook 01-21-21 07:21 PM

i was under the impression, no matter the crank, it depended whether or not the taper is ISO or JIS as to what spindle to match the crank with. read that here on BF or on sheldon brown's. hmmm

steelbikeguy 01-21-21 07:30 PM


Originally Posted by thook (Post 21888691)
i was under the impression, no matter the crank, it depended whether or not the taper is ISO or JIS as to what spindle to match the crank with. read that here on BF or on sheldon brown's. hmmm

there was a time before ISO and JIS existed. Most tapers were specific to the manufacturer. I'm not sure if Sutherlands rated cross-brand fit or not.
Of course, in that day, you just bought a TA axle for your TA crank. Why would you do anything else?

Steve in Peoria

thook 01-21-21 07:36 PM


Originally Posted by steelbikeguy (Post 21888705)
there was a time before ISO and JIS existed. Most tapers were specific to the manufacturer. I'm not sure if Sutherlands rated cross-brand fit or not.
Of course, in that day, you just bought a TA axle for your TA crank. Why would you do anything else?

Steve in Peoria

'cause yer a rebel?? ;)

steelbikeguy 01-21-21 09:39 PM


Originally Posted by thook (Post 21888711)
'cause yer a rebel?? ;)

also, there just wasn't much info on the difference between tapers.
I offer the 1976 Palo Alto catalog as evidence. In this page of bottom brackets, there is no mention of tapers, but there are indications that everything is compatible with everything.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0ea091c013.jpg

Maybe the bike shops had better data?

My own experience with mixing and matching axle tapers is limited. About 20 years ago, I bought a nice Phil Wood BB to use with a Campy Record crankset. I had been using it with the matching Campy bottom bracket prior to this. Phil said it was compatible with the taper, so I trusted them. Well, the tapers didn't match, but were close. The crank yielded (i.e. deformed) a bit during the first 100 miles, allowing the crank bolts to loosen. I was lucky to catch it before the cranks were damaged. No problems since.

I had similar issue with a new SunXCD crank when used with a Specialized bottom bracket. Both are Japanese, so there shouldn't be an issue, but it had to go through the same process of the crank deforming a bit before everything was stable.

I've had much better luck with putting old and new Sugino cranks on Shimano cartridge bottom brackets. No problems there.

Steve in Peoria

repechage 01-21-21 10:52 PM

I have the same low key search... $70 for a 374 spindle is apparently the market currently
the units with wasted bearing tracks... being offered for near as much... hello?

I am considering a Phil unit, for you it would work too just be expensive as you would need two sets of rings... maybe if you bought direct from Phil they would mix a set for you

i did even buy a VeloOrange French bottom bracket - I did not like the way the cranks fit on the polished chromed tapers- TA double cranks
just my opinion - and no grease on the tapers
never felt like they were going to “set”.

bulgie 01-22-21 05:30 AM


Originally Posted by philbob57 (Post 21888607)
The NDS BB threads were cross-threaded by the previous owner, so it's got and Italian TA cup to go with the English fixed cup.

Not what you asked for, but FYI in case you don't know, that Ital thread can be converted back to English with all-new steel threads. Pretty easy too, with this insert that Ceeway sells. Scroll down to the bottom of the page, to "Art. 606"

It's threaded Ital on the OD and Eng (right and left) on the ID. You just thread it in. Silver it in place if you're already wrecking the paint, but I'm betting red loctite would work fine for a cold solution. Just make sure to let the loctite fully cure before putting the cup in. Chasing the Eng threads after the loctite cures might be needed. It might also work fine with neither braze not loctite, just tightening the cup (or lockring) to hold the thread insert in place. (I haven't tried.)

I have a set of them, and the machining is impressive — I can't imagine how they were made. The right side (drive side) insert, with a right-hand Ital thread on the outside and a left-hand Eng thread on the inside, is especially cool. All in only approximately 1 mm of thickness in terms of the difference in thread pitch diameters. Eng is close to ~34.8 mm, and Ital is 36 mm, nominal thread sizes. (A quick measurement of the thickness, like with a caliper might look like somewhat more than the expected 1.2 mm, but you're measuring to the bottom of the thread on the ID and to the top of the thread on the OD. Still a pretty thin ring to be cutting threads on — chapeau to whoever makes them.)

Mark B in Seattle

oneclick 01-22-21 06:02 AM


Originally Posted by bulgie (Post 21889011)
Not what you asked for, but FYI in case you don't know, that Ital thread can be converted back to English with all-new steel threads. Pretty easy too, with this insert that Ceeway sells. Scroll down to the bottom of the page, to "Art. 606"

It's threaded Ital on the OD and Eng (right and left) on the ID. You just thread it in. Silver it in place if you're already wrecking the paint, but I'm betting red loctite would work fine for a cold solution. Just make sure to let the loctite fully cure before putting the cup in. Chasing the Eng threads after the loctite cures might be needed. It might also work fine with neither braze not loctite, just tightening the cup (or lockring) to hold the thread insert in place. (I haven't tried.)

I have a set of them, and the machining is impressive — I can't imagine how they were made. The right side (drive side) insert, with a right-hand Ital thread on the outside and a left-hand Eng thread on the inside, is especially cool. All in only approximately 1 mm of thickness in terms of the difference in thread pitch diameters. Eng is close to ~34.8 mm, and Ital is 36 mm, nominal thread sizes. (A quick measurement of the thickness, like with a caliper might look like somewhat more than the expected 1.2 mm, but you're measuring to the bottom of the thread on the ID and to the top of the thread on the OD. Still a pretty thin ring to be cutting threads on — chapeau to whoever makes them.)

Mark B in Seattle

The closest the two threads should get is about .3mm, root to crest.

Make sure you have them in the correct sides first.

JohnDThompson 01-22-21 07:38 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Here are specs for TA spindles, if you end up using a cartridge of some sort:

63rickert 01-22-21 05:59 PM

TA is somewhat better finished than Stronglight. TA, Stronglight, Nervar were all made the same place and are completely interchangeable. Stronglight exists in several lengths that might work for a triple, you could try a few for cost of a TA. And have spares.

Is it good enough? Going back to the club ride 45 years ago it was March and the 6day season was over. John VandeVelde was home and doing the Sunday morning ride with us. I noticed his Wastyn had Stronglight cups under the Campy Pista cranks. I asked. He said they all worked well enough. If well installed any of them would last the season. But it could be hectic in the infield. A weakly installed BB could die in minutes. Killing a Campy BB hurt, even if someone else had paid for it. Stronglight was disposable. Just get it replaced and don’t think about it. Think about the race, not the kit. He said the Campy rep passed out S-L BBs.

If Stronglight is good enough for pro sixday it is good enough for anything.

repechage 01-22-21 08:22 PM

I have to get my notes, Stronglight tip dimension is a bit bigger than TA or Campagnolo - the tapers live well enough but I have observed that there is just a bit less engagement of a Stronglight spindle on a TA or Campagnolo crank. To me, more is better as long as the spindle does not bottom out.
a TA spindle in a Stronglight arm is not a good combo- too close to the end.

Sluggo 01-23-21 10:03 AM

I use JIS cartridge BBs on TA cranks with no issues. The limiting factor on my bikes has been chainstay clearance (no dimple) and I needed a very long (127 mm or so) spindle. If you have a generous chainstay dimple, you can probably go to the next size shorter. And BTW, IRD has rings with Swiss, Italian, or French threads for their BBs.

This: skf_bb_compatibility_2020_0122.pdf (renehersecycles.com) recommends JIS for TA.


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