Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

TA 374 substitute?

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

TA 374 substitute?

Old 01-21-21, 05:55 PM
  #1  
philbob57
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Chicago North Shore
Posts: 1,763

Bikes: frankenbike based on MKM frame

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 497 Post(s)
Liked 271 Times in 168 Posts
TA 374 substitute?

I've got a TA Cyclotouriste Pro 5 vis crankset with a TA BB and the standard double spindle (part number 344). I'd like to turn it into a triple, for which the 373 or 374 spindle is apparently right. I haven't been able to find a 373 at all, and the 374s I've found are either too expensive or too trashed for my taste. Are there any spindles from Stronglight or Nervar that would be a good fit?

The NDS BB threads were cross-threaded by the previous owner, so it's got and Italian TA cup to go with the English fixed cup, so I want to keep the cups.

I had an interest in the VO threadless BB, but they seem unable to tell me which one (spindle length) I should get.

I've got the necessary chain wheel and triple bolts.

Thanks.
philbob57 is offline  
Old 01-21-21, 06:18 PM
  #2  
steelbikeguy
Senior Member
 
steelbikeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 2,570
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 947 Post(s)
Liked 782 Times in 414 Posts
I keep having the urge to get a proper TA Cyclotouriste crank, but have always wondered what modern BB's would fit the crank taper. I suppose axle length is an issue too....

ummmm.... I don't know the dimensions of the TA axles, but this is a chart for the axle dimensions for Stronglight 93 and 99 of the mid 70's. Maybe you can compare the dimensions of the double chainring axle with your double chainring TA axle? If they are close, there's a decent chance the Stronglight triple axle could work.



Plan A should be "wait for someone with experience to offer advice", of course.

Steve in Peoria
(I do have a SunXCD copy of the Cyclotouriste, though)
steelbikeguy is offline  
Old 01-21-21, 07:21 PM
  #3  
thook
(rhymes with spook)
 
thook's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Winslow, AR
Posts: 2,081

Bikes: '83 univega gran turismo x2, '85 schwinn super le tour,'89 miyata triple cross, '91 GT tequesta, '90 yokota grizzly peak, '94 GT backwoods, '95'ish scott tampico, '98 bonty privateer, '93 mongoose crossway 625, '98 parkpre ariel, 2k'ish giant fcr3

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 595 Post(s)
Liked 395 Times in 296 Posts
i was under the impression, no matter the crank, it depended whether or not the taper is ISO or JIS as to what spindle to match the crank with. read that here on BF or on sheldon brown's. hmmm
thook is offline  
Old 01-21-21, 07:30 PM
  #4  
steelbikeguy
Senior Member
 
steelbikeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 2,570
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 947 Post(s)
Liked 782 Times in 414 Posts
Originally Posted by thook View Post
i was under the impression, no matter the crank, it depended whether or not the taper is ISO or JIS as to what spindle to match the crank with. read that here on BF or on sheldon brown's. hmmm
there was a time before ISO and JIS existed. Most tapers were specific to the manufacturer. I'm not sure if Sutherlands rated cross-brand fit or not.
Of course, in that day, you just bought a TA axle for your TA crank. Why would you do anything else?

Steve in Peoria
steelbikeguy is offline  
Old 01-21-21, 07:36 PM
  #5  
thook
(rhymes with spook)
 
thook's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Winslow, AR
Posts: 2,081

Bikes: '83 univega gran turismo x2, '85 schwinn super le tour,'89 miyata triple cross, '91 GT tequesta, '90 yokota grizzly peak, '94 GT backwoods, '95'ish scott tampico, '98 bonty privateer, '93 mongoose crossway 625, '98 parkpre ariel, 2k'ish giant fcr3

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 595 Post(s)
Liked 395 Times in 296 Posts
Originally Posted by steelbikeguy View Post
there was a time before ISO and JIS existed. Most tapers were specific to the manufacturer. I'm not sure if Sutherlands rated cross-brand fit or not.
Of course, in that day, you just bought a TA axle for your TA crank. Why would you do anything else?

Steve in Peoria
'cause yer a rebel??
thook is offline  
Old 01-21-21, 09:39 PM
  #6  
steelbikeguy
Senior Member
 
steelbikeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 2,570
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 947 Post(s)
Liked 782 Times in 414 Posts
Originally Posted by thook View Post
'cause yer a rebel??
also, there just wasn't much info on the difference between tapers.
I offer the 1976 Palo Alto catalog as evidence. In this page of bottom brackets, there is no mention of tapers, but there are indications that everything is compatible with everything.



Maybe the bike shops had better data?

My own experience with mixing and matching axle tapers is limited. About 20 years ago, I bought a nice Phil Wood BB to use with a Campy Record crankset. I had been using it with the matching Campy bottom bracket prior to this. Phil said it was compatible with the taper, so I trusted them. Well, the tapers didn't match, but were close. The crank yielded (i.e. deformed) a bit during the first 100 miles, allowing the crank bolts to loosen. I was lucky to catch it before the cranks were damaged. No problems since.

I had similar issue with a new SunXCD crank when used with a Specialized bottom bracket. Both are Japanese, so there shouldn't be an issue, but it had to go through the same process of the crank deforming a bit before everything was stable.

I've had much better luck with putting old and new Sugino cranks on Shimano cartridge bottom brackets. No problems there.

Steve in Peoria
steelbikeguy is offline  
Old 01-21-21, 10:52 PM
  #7  
repechage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 15,900
Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1908 Post(s)
Liked 734 Times in 572 Posts
I have the same low key search... $70 for a 374 spindle is apparently the market currently
the units with wasted bearing tracks... being offered for near as much... hello?

I am considering a Phil unit, for you it would work too just be expensive as you would need two sets of rings... maybe if you bought direct from Phil they would mix a set for you

i did even buy a VeloOrange French bottom bracket - I did not like the way the cranks fit on the polished chromed tapers- TA double cranks
just my opinion - and no grease on the tapers
never felt like they were going to “set”.

Last edited by repechage; 01-21-21 at 10:56 PM.
repechage is offline  
Old 01-22-21, 05:30 AM
  #8  
bulgie
blahblahblah chrome moly
 
bulgie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 619
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 354 Post(s)
Liked 478 Times in 256 Posts
Originally Posted by philbob57 View Post
The NDS BB threads were cross-threaded by the previous owner, so it's got and Italian TA cup to go with the English fixed cup.
Not what you asked for, but FYI in case you don't know, that Ital thread can be converted back to English with all-new steel threads. Pretty easy too, with this insert that Ceeway sells. Scroll down to the bottom of the page, to "Art. 606"

It's threaded Ital on the OD and Eng (right and left) on the ID. You just thread it in. Silver it in place if you're already wrecking the paint, but I'm betting red loctite would work fine for a cold solution. Just make sure to let the loctite fully cure before putting the cup in. Chasing the Eng threads after the loctite cures might be needed. It might also work fine with neither braze not loctite, just tightening the cup (or lockring) to hold the thread insert in place. (I haven't tried.)

I have a set of them, and the machining is impressive — I can't imagine how they were made. The right side (drive side) insert, with a right-hand Ital thread on the outside and a left-hand Eng thread on the inside, is especially cool. All in only approximately 1 mm of thickness in terms of the difference in thread pitch diameters. Eng is close to ~34.8 mm, and Ital is 36 mm, nominal thread sizes. (A quick measurement of the thickness, like with a caliper might look like somewhat more than the expected 1.2 mm, but you're measuring to the bottom of the thread on the ID and to the top of the thread on the OD. Still a pretty thin ring to be cutting threads on — chapeau to whoever makes them.)

Mark B in Seattle
bulgie is offline  
Old 01-22-21, 06:02 AM
  #9  
oneclick 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 1,366
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 498 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 464 Times in 290 Posts
Originally Posted by bulgie View Post
Not what you asked for, but FYI in case you don't know, that Ital thread can be converted back to English with all-new steel threads. Pretty easy too, with this insert that Ceeway sells. Scroll down to the bottom of the page, to "Art. 606"

It's threaded Ital on the OD and Eng (right and left) on the ID. You just thread it in. Silver it in place if you're already wrecking the paint, but I'm betting red loctite would work fine for a cold solution. Just make sure to let the loctite fully cure before putting the cup in. Chasing the Eng threads after the loctite cures might be needed. It might also work fine with neither braze not loctite, just tightening the cup (or lockring) to hold the thread insert in place. (I haven't tried.)

I have a set of them, and the machining is impressive — I can't imagine how they were made. The right side (drive side) insert, with a right-hand Ital thread on the outside and a left-hand Eng thread on the inside, is especially cool. All in only approximately 1 mm of thickness in terms of the difference in thread pitch diameters. Eng is close to ~34.8 mm, and Ital is 36 mm, nominal thread sizes. (A quick measurement of the thickness, like with a caliper might look like somewhat more than the expected 1.2 mm, but you're measuring to the bottom of the thread on the ID and to the top of the thread on the OD. Still a pretty thin ring to be cutting threads on — chapeau to whoever makes them.)

Mark B in Seattle
The closest the two threads should get is about .3mm, root to crest.

Make sure you have them in the correct sides first.
oneclick is offline  
Old 01-22-21, 07:38 AM
  #10  
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 22,662

Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.

Mentioned: 133 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2629 Post(s)
Liked 1,281 Times in 801 Posts
Here are specs for TA spindles, if you end up using a cartridge of some sort:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
ta-spindles.jpg (110.8 KB, 57 views)
JohnDThompson is offline  
Old 01-22-21, 05:59 PM
  #11  
63rickert
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,806
Mentioned: 43 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 910 Post(s)
Liked 235 Times in 177 Posts
TA is somewhat better finished than Stronglight. TA, Stronglight, Nervar were all made the same place and are completely interchangeable. Stronglight exists in several lengths that might work for a triple, you could try a few for cost of a TA. And have spares.

Is it good enough? Going back to the club ride 45 years ago it was March and the 6day season was over. John VandeVelde was home and doing the Sunday morning ride with us. I noticed his Wastyn had Stronglight cups under the Campy Pista cranks. I asked. He said they all worked well enough. If well installed any of them would last the season. But it could be hectic in the infield. A weakly installed BB could die in minutes. Killing a Campy BB hurt, even if someone else had paid for it. Stronglight was disposable. Just get it replaced and don’t think about it. Think about the race, not the kit. He said the Campy rep passed out S-L BBs.

If Stronglight is good enough for pro sixday it is good enough for anything.
63rickert is offline  
Likes For 63rickert:
Old 01-22-21, 08:22 PM
  #12  
repechage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 15,900
Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1908 Post(s)
Liked 734 Times in 572 Posts
I have to get my notes, Stronglight tip dimension is a bit bigger than TA or Campagnolo - the tapers live well enough but I have observed that there is just a bit less engagement of a Stronglight spindle on a TA or Campagnolo crank. To me, more is better as long as the spindle does not bottom out.
a TA spindle in a Stronglight arm is not a good combo- too close to the end.
repechage is offline  
Old 01-23-21, 10:03 AM
  #13  
Sluggo
Senior Member
 
Sluggo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Left bank, Knoxville TN
Posts: 589
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Liked 87 Times in 43 Posts
I use JIS cartridge BBs on TA cranks with no issues. The limiting factor on my bikes has been chainstay clearance (no dimple) and I needed a very long (127 mm or so) spindle. If you have a generous chainstay dimple, you can probably go to the next size shorter. And BTW, IRD has rings with Swiss, Italian, or French threads for their BBs.

This: skf_bb_compatibility_2020_0122.pdf (renehersecycles.com) recommends JIS for TA.
Sluggo is offline  
Likes For Sluggo:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.