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Greetings and a Bernhard Carré question

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Greetings and a Bernhard Carré question

Old 02-09-21, 09:35 AM
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Greetings and a Bernhard Carré question

Greetings all. Not been around awhile partly due to physical problems and partly due to the dreaded lockdown restrictions. Anyway it's nice to see you all again.
Bernard Carré experts I have a question... If he built a bike for a member of the public would he have put the clients initials on the willow leaves or is it only pro bikes that have the initials of the Rider?
Hope you're all staying safe and keeping well..
Milo
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Old 02-09-21, 11:12 AM
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Autosmell. Extra H. Never mind.
There's always a reason. Here it is.
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Old 02-09-21, 11:25 AM
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I would only mention, surname forename is common ordering in parts of the world, I've seen it drive many American colleagues nuts working for our Swiss-French holding group, but maybe I'm stating the obvious given your location. It could be argues CB may thus be for Carré Bernard. But I digress, I'm not a Carré expert. I'll shut up and watch the thread now. That looks like the typical leaf stay treatment one would expect.

EDIT: Or is that a GB? My feeble old eyes can't tell if it's a C or G
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Old 02-09-21, 11:26 AM
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Too bad Norris Lockley is not on the list. Good question and an observation.

I would think if one paid enough, they would get their initials on a cap. The pro bikes I have seen (pictures) by BC were not exactly well finished. They were tools. Custom bikes for an individual usually (emphasize usually) would have been finely finished. How about some more pics of what you have?

FWIW, Gilbert Bellone was a member or the Sonolor Lejeune team in 1970 and 1971.


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Old 02-09-21, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by francophile View Post
I would only mention, surname forename is common ordering in parts of the world, I've seen it drive many American colleagues nuts working for our Swiss-French holding group, but maybe I'm stating the obvious given your location. It could be argues CB may thus be for Carré Bernard. But I digress, I'm not a Carré expert. I'll shut up and watch the thread now. That looks like the typical leaf stay treatment one would expect.

EDIT: Or is that a GB? My feeble old eyes can't tell if it's a C or G
Defo GB More pics later.
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Old 02-09-21, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by CV-6 View Post
Too bad Norris Lockley is not on the list. Good question and an observation.

FWIW, Gilbert Bellone was a member or the Sonolor Lejeune team in 1970.
I have not been idle in the last hour (for a change).
In the right age bracket (from 1960 DoB ish)


Gino Bartali

Gilbert Bauvin

Giovanni Battaglin

Guido Bontempi

Gianbatista Baroncelli

Gilbert Bellone

Gregor Braun

It's in the back of the van still, grabbed from Emmaus while I was looking for coffee cups, I'll get it out and photo it tomorrow. CV-6 Was hoping you'd be around
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Old 02-09-21, 12:15 PM
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MiloFrance -

I would say personal name initial on top with family name initial below. There is an example of Jacques Anquetil's 1963 Gitane illustrated on page 161 of Rebour which shows that configuration of initials. It seems likely the practice would have been the same on customs.
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Old 02-09-21, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by MiloFrance View Post
I have not been idle in the last hour (for a change).
In the right age bracket (from 1960 DoB ish)


Gino Bartali

Gilbert Bauvin

Giovanni Battaglin

Guido Bontempi

Gianbatista Baroncelli

Gilbert Bellone

Gregor Braun

It's in the back of the van still, grabbed from Emmaus while I was looking for coffee cups, I'll get it out and photo it tomorrow. CV-6 Was hoping you'd be around
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Old 02-09-21, 04:25 PM
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Subscribing, as I'm both a GB and a BG fan.
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Old 02-09-21, 08:17 PM
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There are so few Carre frames with initials on seat stay caps, it would seem unlikely that the initials went on customs too (as opposed to just the frames for pro riders in the pelton) ... especially given the quantity of Carre frames that display what are generally considered custom touches like the diamond windows cut into Prugnut S lugs yet have seat stay caps proudly emblazoned "B.CARRE"
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Old 02-10-21, 04:43 AM
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Old 02-10-21, 04:46 AM
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Old 02-10-21, 06:08 AM
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A couple of things strike me. Assuming that the bottom bracket stamp is November 1970, why would there not be a derailleur hanger? Plenty of small dents so could well have been used and abused in race situations. Handlebars are tiny. Even with the flare which I don't think you can see very well on the photos they are only 40 cm at the tips. Logos on the brake hoods look like Motobecane?
It's 56 cm Square so a good size for a Frenchman
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Old 02-10-21, 11:32 AM
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It's a real Frankenstein, for sure. It looks like it's had its share of lives.

The bars are off an early-mid 80s (ish) Motobecane with the molded Hutchinson faux-leather wraps, it's a hood and bar wrap in one. Looks like someone didn't know how to take them off, so stripped off one side? Odd, but ... "Okay!?"

Unfortunate dings about, most noticeable for me is in the head tube.

Maybe it's just me, but the front fork looks like it has forward rake. I was looking at the head tube intersections for signs of accident or damage but my feeble eyes don't see anything. Possibly just the angle of the photo.

That seat bolt binder makes me cringe every time. Looks like several things on this bike were products of necessity geared to what was easily within reach.

Very cool! What's your plan?
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Old 02-10-21, 11:33 AM
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The no hanger is a puzzler. Does it appear to have been cut off? The date would seem to coincide with GB being on the Sonolor Lejeune team. And it is the first time I have seen a date on a Carré frame. One thing that kind of jumps out at me is the finish of the stays at the rear drop. They are not finished in that they are not filled in. In line with the frame being a tool? No gussets at the brake bridge. I am guessing we would see a seam on the back side? Typical Carré. The Lejeune I have owned since the early 70s has the same. Maybe this frame was gifted by GB to a friend after the season? That would account for the later components on it. It is kind of crusty, but I would likely have bought it also just because of the initials.
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Old 02-10-21, 11:40 AM
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Oh - and am I crazy, or is that a bulge in the bb shell where it meets the top tube, in that first second underside shot?
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Old 02-10-21, 12:00 PM
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Anyone reading this that wouldn't have bought it for 15 euros, put your hand up...

It is a bulge but looks like its supposed to be there. If only we knew someone with an encyclopedic knowledge of lugs and shells.

I"ve not noticed anything odd on the fork rake, will look again tomorrow. Stay finishing on the rear drops is slightly fishmouth with a shine of chrome underneath. Something else to examine.

I think the 'given to a mate' theory is a good one.
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Old 02-10-21, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by MiloFrance View Post
Anyone reading this that wouldn't have bought it for 15 euros, put your hand up...


Originally Posted by MiloFrance View Post
It is a bulge but looks like its supposed to be there. If only we knew someone with an encyclopedic knowledge of lugs and shells.
Hmmm, where's that @juvela character?
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Old 02-11-21, 09:58 AM
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Curious logo on the BB.



Chrome and '10' on the nds stay/DO

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Old 02-11-21, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by francophile View Post
Oh - and am I crazy, or is that a bulge in the bb shell where it meets the top tube, in that first second underside shot?
The bulge under the downtube socket of the bottom bracket is not that uncommon.
I have associated it with distortion during construction to get the inclusive angle where it is wanted.

The missing image for me is the seat lug without the seatpost binder bolt.
We can see it has been closed up, I would anticipate the correct seatpost size to be 26.4 or 26.6mm
I would also consider that the original derailleur hangar was sawed off. The dropouts look more Campagnolo than Simplex.

Frame could well have been for a particular client or bike shop. It has already been water-boarded as seen by the rust and not revealed the organization it worked for.
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Old 02-11-21, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by MiloFrance View Post
Curious logo on the BB.
Maybe a reach, but stylized SL? Sonolor Lejeune?
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Old 02-11-21, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by CV-6 View Post
Maybe a reach, but stylized SL? Sonolor Lejeune?
There's a Lejeune on Classic Lightweights that could be it's twin. Sadly there's also the evidence of a chopped off hanger.

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Old 02-11-21, 12:40 PM
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Yeah, that side-by-side is pretty damning. This is one of those cases where you gotta wonder what the motivation was. Maybe someone converted to fixie at one point.

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Old 02-11-21, 05:57 PM
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Hacksaw motivation? loss of repair creativity or brain damage.
It can be fixed.
Insure the adjuster threads are good or redeemable.
the axle slot on the drive side appears to be increasing in size torward the front, that might be the clue.
drop the fork, I bet Nervor steerer. You need to push out the dent on the head tube anyway.
The added stampings on the frame could well be post fabrication.
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Old 03-21-21, 08:05 AM
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What's in the garage today and confirmed that it is a pair of campagnolo dropouts on the back. Can anybody confirm the model please? Or suggest something similar enough that I would not need to replace both..

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