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Was this wheel laced correctly?

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Was this wheel laced correctly?

Old 02-16-21, 03:42 PM
  #1  
polymorphself 
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Was this wheel laced correctly?

Just had someone lace up this wheelset for me and I realized that on the rear wheel, every other spike sticks out through the nipple. I checked a few other wheels I have and none look like this, and I’ve never noticed such a thing on wheels in the past.

I imagine this will cause puncture issues? It was done at a well regarded shop but the builder in question did mention that this was his first time lacing up a 36/40h set.

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Old 02-16-21, 03:45 PM
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So he used spokes on one side that were too long, likely the drive side. Yes they will cause punctures.
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Old 02-16-21, 03:47 PM
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My opinion is that this is not acceptable. It is common to use the same size spoke on the drive side as the non-drive side. Perhaps this is why every other spoke is long. For a pro, they should use the right size spoke. Armatures sometimes grind the protruding spoke down rather than changing spokes. But this stick-out is on the border of too much to grind (in my opinion).
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Old 02-16-21, 03:48 PM
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polymorphself - that protruding spoke should not be like that. It would most certainly eventually puncture the tube internally even with Velox rim tape. The wheelbuilder miscalculated the spoke length. I would most definitely take it back right away to have it remedied. If it were a double wall rim with a ferule then the protruding spoke might not cause a puncture. But from the photo it appears that your wheel was built with a single wall rim so any amount of the spoke tip that protrudes from the end of the nipple creates a sharp point that will lead to a puncture.
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Old 02-16-21, 04:21 PM
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Thanks all, I figured they had to be incorrect. Bringing the set back in today.
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Old 02-16-21, 04:30 PM
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If they required licenses to build wheels, that one should be revoked. My guess, builder tried to use the same size spokes for the whole wheel.
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Old 02-16-21, 04:31 PM
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typically the drive side spokes are 1+mm SHORTER for a 5 speed, 120mm OLD wheel
and 2mm Shorter on a 125-126mm 6-7 speed hub.

the Optimal length is where the spoke fills the nipple all the way or nearly all the way, beyond the slot, not beyond the end.

Way back a shop would have a grinding wheel and grind them back.
Correct practice is select the correct length spokes.
Grinding back reduces the adjustment for truing the wheel later.

On a wheel like this, any serious truing should have the tire and rim strip off the wheel to monitor and correct (grind, file) if needed.
Easier to monitor roundness too.
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Old 02-16-21, 05:41 PM
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You're doing 36 hole hub on 40 hole rim or the other way around?

If it is tensioned properly and round and true just take a file to the protruding heads. Spokes are very soft and will melt under the file. If you arent done all of them in 3 minutes you are doing it wrong.
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Old 02-16-21, 05:43 PM
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My guess is that there is more to the problem than improper length spokes. I would like to see the offending wheel from the side so that I could consider proper spoke pattern.

Anything this sort of thing has happened to me, the cause has been me and my lack of skill when building wheels. Make no mistake about it it is easy to foul up the pattern and tough to figure out where you went wrong. My most recent error...

Again, could use some more pictures. I would also want to observe proper dish.

Will that puncture - like a knife and don't go far from home on test ride day. Could be a long walk home.
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Old 02-16-21, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Narhay View Post
You're doing 36 hole hub on 40 hole rim or the other way around?
Front is 36 hole rim and hub, rear is 40 hole rim and hub. It’s a touring wheelset from a 1988 Miyata 615.

Originally Posted by randyjawa View Post
My guess is that there is more to the problem than improper length spokes. I would like to see the offending wheel from the side so that I could consider proper spoke pattern.

Again, could use some more pictures. I would also want to observe proper dish.
Here are some more pics:






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Old 02-16-21, 06:07 PM
  #11  
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It's all the drive-side spokes that are poking up, no? Because they have a tiny bit less distance to go. This was a common problem for single walled rims back when they were more widely used. I'm guessing the bike shop also hasn't built a single walled rim recently either.

I'd just grind 'em. It will be fine. If you don't have a grinder, use a file. It'll take you less time to do that than to go fight with the shop about it. Don't go there again, build the wheels yourself next time!

Most of the strength of a spoke nipple comes from the threads in the head. Ergo, better too long than too short. I've done this a time or two and never had a breakage issue, even on tandems.

The only issue grinding has ever caused me is if I grind too aggressively the end of the spoke will get a little messed up and might stick in the nipple, which makes truing harder in the future. A light touch with the grinder, or using a file, helps a lot here.
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Old 02-16-21, 06:08 PM
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Ok, I saw that you mentioned in the original post polymorphself however, I thought that the front wheel was 36 spokes and the rear was 40. Was this a 40 hole hub onto a 36 hole rim? It hardly matters though since the spokes are long regardless of the pattern.

If filing or grinding is the accepted solution for a pro wheel builder (I wouldn't think so), it still should have been done before handing them to you.

Well, give them a chance to get it right.

Oh yea, you have the Schwinn Voyager SP. That came with a 40 spoke rear wheel Did the rim need replacement? Could you not find a 40 hole rim? Is this a quick fix until you find a 40 hole rim? I know rims are in short supply right now.
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Old 02-16-21, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Velo Mule View Post
Ok, I saw that you mentioned in the original post polymorphself however, I thought that the front wheel was 36 spokes and the rear was 40. Was this a 40 hole hub onto a 36 hole rim? It hardly matters though since the spokes are long regardless of the pattern.

If filing or grinding is the accepted solution for a pro wheel builder (I wouldn't think so), it still should have been done before handing them to you.

Well, give them a chance to get it right.

Oh yea, you have the Schwinn Voyager SP. That came with a 40 spoke rear wheel Did the rim need replacement? Could you not find a 40 hole rim? Is this a quick fix until you find a 40 hole rim? I know rims are in short supply right now.
It originally came with 27" wheels. These were 700c so I thought it would be a nice little upgrade. I agree that even if grinding is acceptable then it should have been done before they were handed back to me. I paid ~$200 for the spokes and labor and this mishap makes me uncomfortable about the entire job. I also wish it would have occurred to me before walking out of the shop. It's been about two weeks. I just finally took them out of my car to mount them and then I noticed.
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Old 02-16-21, 06:17 PM
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It is 40 holes in the hub and 40 in the rim. I missed the pictures because I was typing.

Originally Posted by scarlson View Post
It's all the drive-side spokes that are poking up, no? Because they have a tiny bit less distance to go. This was a common problem for single walled rims back when they were more widely used. I'm guessing the bike shop also hasn't built a single walled rim recently either.

I'd just grind 'em. It will be fine. If you don't have a grinder, use a file. It'll take you less time to do that than to go fight with the shop about it. Don't go there again, build the wheels yourself next time!

Most of the strength of a spoke nipple comes from the threads in the head. Ergo, better too long than too short. I've done this a time or two and never had an issue, even on tandems.
While that may be true they really should not have an issue with getting this right and be given the opportunity to correct it, or prove that they don't deserve your business, at least, not for wheel building.
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Old 02-16-21, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Velo Mule View Post
While that may be true they really should not have an issue with getting this right and be given the opportunity to correct it, or prove that they don't deserve your business, at least, not for wheel building.
Aye, you're right of course. I guess I am speaking from a place of being over tired from fighting with people to get my money's worth. I'd rather fight with the metal than with a person, I suppose. I wish the OP luck in whatever path is chosen.
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Old 02-16-21, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by polymorphself View Post
I paid ~$200 for the spokes and labor
I'd be back at the store with the wheels telling the owner I was going to ask him if that was the kind of work they thought was good enough and that depending on his answer I might never walk through his door again.

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Old 02-16-21, 07:40 PM
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Hozan makes a tool for nipping those excess threads.
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Old 02-17-21, 02:15 AM
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If I had the wheel in my hand, I might say the pattern is wrong. That is where I would start. Also, do the drive side spokes have more or less tension than the non-drive side? Also, in one picture, at least, it looks as if some drive side spokes are loose (looks like some spokes are not under tension).

The wheel was done wrong and the owner of the shop needs to know that. The guy who built the wheel should also know that he/she made an error and a significant one. I would not do the grinding since chances are pretty good that you will be running out of thread should you need to adjust wheel hop/wobble.

The simplest/proper solution is to rebuild the wheel and, if necessary, install spokes of the proper length and that is the responsibility of the shop. The best solution is to do the wheel build yourself but that takes understanding of how to do it (theory) and the feel for doing it (practice). There are no short answers to building a wheel (correct pattern, correct spoke length, correct tension, true of hop/wobble, dishing, stress relieving and that pretty much covers some of the things that need to be addressed). That said...

Wheel building, for an avid vintage bicycle enthusiast, is almost a necessity as far, as I am concerned. To that add the, once learned, building wheels is fun and certainly rewarding once learned. And remember, even after building lots and lots of wheels, I still make a mistake now and again, but those mistakes do not reach road use!
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Old 02-17-21, 09:46 AM
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I have built a few sets of wheels and for me it takes a long time because I haven't been formally trained. I just went on Sheldon's web site and did it . They came out nice and it was rewarding but in the future I would have someone do it. As far as the rear wheel , I had a similar situation on a wheel but not quite as bad. I took a dremel and ground the end of the spoke . I had so much time into the wheel and the protrusion was not that bad so that's what I did. I had the valve stem hole perfectly positioned between parallel spokes and when sited lined up with the Campy logo on the hub . There are spoke length calculators posted on line that help.
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Old 02-17-21, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by oneclick View Post
I'd be back at the store with the wheels telling the owner I was going to ask him if that was the kind of work they thought was good enough and that depending on his answer I might never walk through his door again.
I would do exactly this.

It would never occur to me to use the same length spokes on the drive side as the non drive side. For this very reason.
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Old 02-17-21, 01:37 PM
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Every second spoke, assuming drive side, means they used too long spokes on the side that gets dished over and needs slightly shorter spokes. That being said I would still just file the ends off and not go back to that shop, especially for $200.

Dropping the wheel off, the hassle, then picking it up vs. the few minutes of filing is up to you.
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Old 02-17-21, 01:38 PM
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Several options here imo.

First thing I would do is check the tensions, to see if they were able to achieve sufficient tensions. If not, the spokes may need to be replaced.

It's a 40-hole single-walled rim, so tensions in the 80kg range on the drive side should be about right.

It's a poorly done job, especially since they didn't even bother to cut down those 20 protruding spokes. Poor work and poor presentation you could say.

Some shops have quite-limited spoke length inventories, so may use slightly incorrect spoke lengths of they don't have a spoke machine.

You spent good money and have the right to return the wheel with your concerns about those protruding spokes.
How they deal with it informs as to their commitment to quality work and customer satisfaction.

The spoke pattern on this wheel is correct as far the issue of spoke heads oriented in and out for both sides of the wheel, but which is another thing that could have caused half of the wheel's spokes to protrude.
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Old 02-17-21, 02:31 PM
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It's probably too late now, but you probably could have gone 4x on that wheel since it's 40 spokes.
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Old 02-17-21, 03:09 PM
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+1 to not laced correctly & will eventually cause punctures, along with damaged base tape. Before just accepting grinding off the protruding spoke ends, I’d also want to know how much threading is left on the DS spokes before they bottom out and run out of thread. You may eventually need true that wheel or re-tension/re-dish, and I’d want to know there will be some leeway before running out of threads. Also, conventional wisdom says spokes with threading section too far up into the nipples are more prone to breaking.
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Old 02-17-21, 05:53 PM
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Also note that in addition to not having any of the spoke ends proud of the spoke nipple heads, ideally, no spoke threads would show on the other end of the nipples when the wheel spokes are fully tensioned
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