Frame selection
 

Hey folks,

I decided that my Bottecchia junkyard-salvage frame deserves a somewhat faithful restoration into a light tourer, but I'm still itching for a racy steel frame to build up with modern components, that has been my wish from the get-go.

I found a couple of interesting bikes on our local "craigslist", I would greatly appreciate your opinion on these.
I'm 175cm tall so I'd prefer a (lighter) 52cm frame, but I can make do with 54 as well.

I appologise if this is supposed to be in the appraisal subforum, I wasn't sure, since I don't need to know how much they're worth, but which one I should get, considering I wan't to build it up.
If I get a full bike, I don't mind leaving brakes, wheels, etc. on, a modern drivetrain is my main goal.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...11a1a3edc4.jpg
Nivacrom, dura ace size 54, expensive
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...84533190b7.jpg
Ole size ?? somewhat expensive
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7a46b3285e.jpg
Montagner size 52, pretty cheap
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...827b001096.jpg
size 54, columbus fork, probably oria tubing, pretty cheap
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e8d49c380e.jpg
Dura ace jupiter king repainted as Bianchi, size ??, expensive
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...038b6fc8f2.jpg
dura ace jupiter king size 52, price not listed, can probably get a good deal
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...141e36a063.jpg
size 52, cheap

[MENTION=534437]BakinaRakija[/MENTION] - The largest one is the Pinarello, so it is likely out of your fit range. That is the one I gravitate towards. I would not touch the fake Bianchi, because it is fake.
If you don't want the hassle of building it up, the Scapin is the right choice, IMHO.
The ultimate time sink is the real Bianchi. Although I don't care for unicrown forks and the rust looks pretty bad, could be surface rust but a lot of it.

I don't know the other brands well enough to comment.

I'd be tempted by the Jupiter King to ride as equipped if it is complete. But for your project, I vote for the Montagner. Racing pedigree and your size.

Best bicycle in the lot is the Scapin. It is modern enough that it has amenities like brifters, dula pivot brakes, indexing and Hyperglide. Yet it just old enough to be considered C&V. Scapin is a marque that deserves inclusion at the highest rank but is under appreciated.

Based on your criteria, I agree that the Pinarello appears to be too large.

The two Jupiter Kings wear Shimano Dura-Ace AX from the early 1980s. While it was one of my favourite groups it is unorthodox. The pedals and cranks use 1' threads, the brakes use dedicated pads (hard to find, so you end up carving pads to fit). Many members don't like dealing with the quirkiness for their prime bicycle.

Unless you have a good stash of appropriate parts, it can get expensive to build up even cheap frames. Of the three, the Bianchi Vento 505 is the worst, in very rough condition with massive rust. It would definitely require the additional cost of a reaint and while the Montagner looks a bit better, it might be a repaint candidate too. I know nothing about the 3 rd frame

As usual, great advice from all of you, thanks a million.

I will inquire about the montagner, and if I can get it for really cheap, I'll probably go with that and build it up, I assume the frame is still older, less advanced tubing than the Scapin?

Does the Dura Ace 8 speed hyperglyde freehub have enough space for 11 speed?

If you take a 52 to 54 cm bike (seat tube c-c), not many of those are in that ball park, to my eye. For me, height is a dubious way to size, because it ignores whether you are short-waisted (long legs) or long-waisted (short legs). If you're going by top tube, I am 5'6", and my good TTs range from 52 cm to nearly 56. A good tell-tale for bike size is the head tube. The Scapin and maybe the Pinarello are the best-pedigreed frames up there, but the head tubes tell me their conventional sizings are in the large or extra-large category. As nearly 5'6" I would not consider those two, and your 175 cm translates to 5 foot 9 inches. I don't slavishly size based on standover clearance, but too high of a top tube reminds you painfully every time you suddenly get off the saddle when you stop. And your smaller ones look like too many problems/lower quality.

Do some more looking before you pull the trigger. And read up on measuring pubic bone height, and the formula for getting reasonable first estimate of your vertical bike size based on seat tube length. I suspect you are more like 54 or 55 cm, maybe with a 54-56 TT for a racy roadie and not too much stem.

As far as the tubing quality, if you can't go by the frame stickers you just need to ride them, but sizing is before tubing. For modern bikes, to base bike size on height is some thing the manufacturer has sorted out. For older bikes like these, it's better to use your body measurements.

Also a fan of Montagner cause I once owned one, true that both Scapin and Pinarello are better known marques but priced accordingly. assuming a build-up from bare frame is on the cards, only thing that might scare me off is that dark patch on the Montagner's downtube: it needs close inspection. The IRIDE is possibly more modern (has shorty semi-vertical DOs, could have a wider rear spacing) and it's a 54, but I'd check it out as well if the size is not off-putting. Never heard of IRIDE but wonder if this is a re-brand/re-paint of something else. This could be a "plus" tho, since you are talking of modern drivetrain on a more "C&V frame".
Per your questions of comparing the Scapin to the Monty: I do not know what this ATEC model would be built with but the fork blade seems to have the silver back decal that was common on Cromor bladed forks, so maybe the frame is Cromor, maybe better (like SL). Yes it DOES have a fair amount of chrome but Scapin was generous with the chrome, even on cheaper-grade tubesets like Zeta or Gara. And the workmanship was higher-tier than the tubing would warrant. The Monty might be Oria but if so I'd bet it's around Columbus SL, and in fact Montagner was using Columbus before switching to Oria so if you check it in person see if there's any remnant of tubing decal, and check the steerer's base for Columbus "rifling".

mho
 

If you are changing the whole drive train dont buy a whole bike because you will be paying big for a bunch of stuff you dont want and wont use. Many people buy beautiful frames but are so shocked at the cost of high end parts that do the frame justice, the frame sits in the garage for twenty years.Good parts are expensive so I look for them first.Secure the parts you want , dont settle for less. Especially wheels...I always start with the wheels because they are the most expensive thing and hardest parts to find / build.In fact gather most of your parts first then look for a frame that way you wont be scrimping and trying to save money getting your build together in the end .If a frame has rust on the outside it will be double on the inside .Dont buy a rusty frame, there are thousands of frames. I think you will discover finding a great frame is the easy part.

Firstly, thanks for all the great advice. I'm not in a hurry, so I will definetly wait for a more no-brainer frame to come up for sale, and gather parts in the meantime, it's silly of me that I havent thought of that from the get go.

Regarding the wheels, so far, I've not found any good looking new "silver" wheelsets that would accept 11s cassettes. Any advice on which brands to pay attention to on the used market? I suppose I'm looking at 15+ years old, anything newer seems to have black rims.

I think for you to get your dream bike you will have to get a new rear wheel at least....Did you know some people change their chains and cassettes every couple of years because they wear out that fast.High end racing parts are made so light weight and so thin and to such close tolerances they wear quickly Fifteen year old spokes might be good to ride around the neighborhood but I wouldnt trust them on any high speed descends.I love building bikes Its a labor of love.They are art projects for me.In the last year I built four.I didnt want four new bikes I dint need four new bikes in fact Im sort of mad I have four new bikes.I just love designing and building them.pure joy

I think I've just recently discovered the feeling you're talking about. Especially doing work on old neglected (or not) frames that originally had a lot of work and skill put into them. I've been a utilitarian cyclist all my life, but I've always appreciated craftsmanship. That's why modern frame design doesn't move me at all, it's all about engineering and alot less about art and craft.

I would buy new wheels no problem, it's just that I will probably have to resort to a full black-parts-on-vintage-frame build, which I'm not too keen on. I can't seem to find new classic looking wheelsets. Ritchey zeta classic is discontinued and mostly out of stock, and that's alll I've found. I would even consider building a new wheelset, I have some experience with trueing wheels and replacing spokes, it's the next logical step to do so, but even nice silver rims are hard to come by.

I ended up taking a look at the montagner frame, for which the seller wanted a reasonable price, but the downtube rust above the braze-on shifter mounts was so bad there were literally tiny holes through the tube wall. So sad, because it was otherwise a very good looking frame with nice montagner details. Not the lightest, though. Got some more searching to do.