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ISO Regina Freewheel tool/trade or borrow?

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ISO Regina Freewheel tool/trade or borrow?

Old 03-31-21, 11:07 PM
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ISO Regina Freewheel tool/trade or borrow?

PROBLEM SOLVED! No need to send any more responses to this post, unless you just want to enlighten me.
Read on, many great suggestions AND, so you know in advance. A LBS had the tool I needed and removed the FW for me.
Cheers!
Nubra



Hello all,

Having just completed a compete rebuilt for my best friend Doug, I have now started a restoration of a bike for an older neighbor.

I am trying to find a Regina Freewheel removal tool.I tried my Suntour two prong tool, and it looks like I could modify it to work. I would just have to narrow the prongs a bit, but after extensive reading on the BF, and personal experience with the Park Tool 2 prong tool being pretty soft metal, I don't think that the modified tool would work on a freewheel that hasn't been removed from the wheel since 1974, even if I clamp it down with the QR.

This is a 1974 Regina "Extra" on a 1974 Phil Wood hub. Amazing to see these hubs on a cottered crank, Motobecane Mirage, 1974, according to the owner.
(Some of you may have seen my post asking about the rear derailleur, which is missing in the photo below)

The owner said that the bike shop owner was a friend of his and offered to upgrade the wheels for him when he bought the bike new from the shop. Apparently he rode it for transportation for about 2 years, and then he got a car, and the bike has essentially been an occasional fun ride since then. Kept in his well sealed garage all this time. Cotter pins came out without a fuss, using the Bikesmith cotter tool. But I just cant see buying the tool for the Regina/ The "inexpensive" $40 ones look really cheap, and the Campagnolo tool is $100 on eBarf.

I live in Santa Cruz, CA 95060. Have no idea what shipping would be. But the Campagnolo version with a flange that doesn't allow the tool to slip, are from 70-100$. Hence, I am looking for a loan. I would be delighted pay for shipping. If you want to trade,I recently came into ownership of a collection of TA touriste chain rings, (mostly 50s, 52, mix of 40s and one 32) many of them in very good condition along with a bunch of NOS alloy bolts to go with them. Alas no nuts but there are some spacers.

Thanks for reading!





Regina "extra" freewheel mounted on a Phil Wood hub.



Motobecane Mirage
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Last edited by Nubra; 04-02-21 at 10:44 AM. Reason: Problem Solved
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Old 03-31-21, 11:48 PM
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...people here have chastised me for suggesting this, previously. But in the situation you describe, I would just do a destructive removal of that freewheel, toss the parts, and move on with something newer from Suntour or Shimano with some cog teeth that shift a little better.

It's true that Regina made a nice freewheel, of good quality. But as you have already observed, that one has been on the hub a long time. The two prong removers from various makers do not, IME, work a whole lot better in one case or the other. You run into the same problems with whatever removal tool with a 2 prong design. They generally slip out of the recesses when you apply torque, even if clamped pretty solidly with a QR. This damages the slots, and often you end up doing a destructive removal anyway.

If you had the tool, you lose nothing by trying it. Might work, might not. But unless there's some special reason you want to save that freewheel, waiting around for one to arrive in the mail slows you down. And some of the slightly newer tooth designs really do shift better.

Someone will chastise me again now for encouraging you to waste a classic Regina freewheel. I'm just saying what I would do (and have in the past done) in your situation. Feel free to ignore me.
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Old 04-01-21, 04:43 AM
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...also, I see a great deal of oxidation/rust on the outer surface of this Regina, so I'd surmise there is a similar environment between the threads on the Regina and the threads on the Phil Wood hub. The oxidation causes bonding between the steel and the aluminum surfaces. Thus, it is likely the tool will deform/damage/destroy the removal notches on the freewheel prior to the threads breaking free.

Before any attempt, do your best to soak those threads with penetrating oil, i.e. WD-40, Liquid Wrench, etc. Of course this is not easy with a plastic chain guard in the way, but try your best. Removing the outer body from the inner body prior to removal from the hub would make soaking the threads easier.

Some suggest using the Dura Ace tool which has a lip which fits over the top of the inner body. The lip better seats the tool and keeps the notches from slipping out of place. However, since I'm in agreement with 3alarmer about Regina freewheels, I don't use them and thus don't care if one is destroyed.

I'll also add, that mechanically speaking, that model is poorly made with lousy internal tolerances, especially when compared to same era Suntour and Shimano freewheels. Even the Atoms and Maillards of the same vintage are better machined freewheels. Just my two cents.
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Old 04-01-21, 04:58 AM
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I'd be sorely tempted to do a destructive removal as well. The 2 prong design is a headache. I have a regina freewheel with damaged prongs mounted to a nice wheelset. I plan on doing a destructive removal.
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Old 04-01-21, 06:31 AM
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The best remover tools for those Regina 2-notch bodies are the Bicycle Research CT-1 and old-style Dura-Ace tools, as they have a stabilizing ring to minimize the risk of the tool slipping and damaging the remover notches on the freewheel. They've been out of production for many years, but often turn up on eBay or perhaps an established bike shop may have one and remove the freewheel for you.
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Old 04-01-21, 07:07 AM
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Would the tool you speak of be the VAR 186?

There seem to be several variants of this tool being currently sold but most knock-offs seem to have been made with just the base and not the extension. They seem to look like this.



Three days ago I had a Regina freewheel stuck on a hub with a snapped axle. Previous owner deliverately installed without grease as he believes that freewheels are disposable. I cut off the axle leaving only the single flange with the hub. We mounted that in a vise and tried holding the extention with hand pressure but it did slip so used a clamp to hold the tool still. Off that freewheel came.


This one has a slight chip but worked perfectly three days ago



Should've said I have a few of these so if needed PM me

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Old 04-01-21, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Nubra View Post
I tried my Suntour two prong tool, and it looks like I could modify it to work.
I did this many years ago and SO FAR have been successful using the resultant tool on both brands of freewheels.
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Old 04-01-21, 08:19 AM
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Must be a very old Regina Extra as I have several from the 80ís, but the removal tool I have is splined instead of having 2 prongs...!
Campyís freewheel tool is also pronged & I nearly destroyed a Campy Alum freewheel trying to remove it. A bike shop had to take on the task.
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Old 04-01-21, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by tiger1964 View Post
I did this many years ago and SO FAR have been successful using the resultant tool on both brands of freewheels.
I have a lead from another member to check a LBS that I had not considered. If not then will try. I will be sure to squirt a ton of Aerokroil on it before starting though.
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Old 04-01-21, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by 1 Lugnut View Post
Must be a very old Regina Extra as I have several from the 80ís, but the removal tool I have is splined instead of having 2 prongs...!
One presumes that there is a record on when Regina might have switched to the Atom-ic pattern. Back when I worked in shops, two-prong was so more desirable... as long as the freewheel was not severely stuck. Splined, as in Atom, meant the thick-walled Atom tool which needed removing drive-side cones at the very least, or the Phil Wood tool which is eggshell-thin aluminum and looked like it would crumple in your hand (that said, I still have mine).
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Old 04-01-21, 09:56 AM
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I would file your suntour remover ever so slightly and try it out. If it ruins it then so be it, then try the destructive method. Punch the lock ring clockwise with a hammer and nail or punch, pull off the cogs and grab the freewheel body with some pliers.
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Old 04-01-21, 11:06 AM
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I have a very cool Regina FW removal tool that threads on to the skewer and works remarkably well but I wouldn't let go of it. If you look around locally someone in your area may have one. I went to a Trek shop with my tool to help them remove an old freewheel that looked stubborn and otherwise stuck. This tool and a vise worked! The guy at the Trek shop told me he had heard of this tool but never seen or used one and he was amazed at how well it worked. I am sure I'm not the only guy with one of these.
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Old 04-01-21, 11:39 AM
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I don't understand the amount of negativity towards Regina two-prongs in this thread. Yes, sometimes they can be a pain. Yes, sometimes they require destructive removal if the builder/shop never greased it to the threads. And sometimes they can be just fine.

If you can make at least one attempt to do the job with the proper tool, you might as well give it a try.

I believe my Kingsbridge tool is designed for Reginas, but I'd want to check it on a Regina (if I still have any). I have one of the Bicycle Research tools here specifically designed for them, but it has a small nick in the tooth which may cause issues.

-Kurt
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Old 04-01-21, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Nubra View Post
I have a lead from another member to check a LBS that I had not considered. If not then will try. I will be sure to squirt a ton of Aerokroil on it before starting though.
@Nubra I'm over the hill from you if you want to try to meet and and try my Dura-ace tool. I bought it on line for around $20, so if you need one longer term, that is an option. For a one-off I'd try Cupertino Bike Shop. Greg, their C&V mechanic works TH-Sa and has all the tools and know how to tell you if it's doable, or a waste of time trying.

Mike
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Old 04-01-21, 05:40 PM
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Nubra PM me if all else fails, I have a couple of the Shimano TL-FW10 (Dura Ace) tools mentioned above. I'd be happy to send you one to try. They work great.

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Old 04-01-21, 06:09 PM
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Old 04-01-21, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Kabuki12 View Post
I have a very cool Regina FW removal tool that threads on to the skewer and works remarkably well but I wouldn't let go of it. If you look around locally someone in your area may have one. I went to a Trek shop with my tool to help them remove an old freewheel that looked stubborn and otherwise stuck. This tool and a vise worked! The guy at the Trek shop told me he had heard of this tool but never seen or used one and he was amazed at how well it worked. I am sure I'm not the only guy with one of these.
Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
I don't understand the amount of negativity towards Regina two-prongs in this thread. Yes, sometimes they can be a pain. Yes, sometimes they require destructive removal if the builder/shop never greased it to the threads. And sometimes they can be just fine.

If you can make at least one attempt to do the job with the proper tool, you might as well give it a try.

I believe my Kingsbridge tool is designed for Reginas, but I'd want to check it on a Regina (if I still have any). I have one of the Bicycle Research tools here specifically designed for them, but it has a small nick in the tooth which may cause issues.

-Kurt
Originally Posted by SwimmerMike View Post
@Nubra I'm over the hill from you if you want to try to meet and and try my Dura-ace tool. I bought it on line for around $20, so if you need one longer term, that is an option. For a one-off I'd try Cupertino Bike Shop. Greg, their C&V mechanic works TH-Sa and has all the tools and know how to tell you if it's doable, or a waste of time trying.

Mike
Originally Posted by FBOATSB View Post
Nubra PM me if all else fails, I have a couple of the Shimano TL-FW10 (Dura Ace) tools mentioned above. I'd be happy to send you one to try. They work great.
Originally Posted by FBOATSB View Post
Hey all, THANKS. I found a LBS with the Bicycle Research tool and they removed it for me. It was a breeze, though I DID soak it well with Kroil overnight, and refreshed the kroil before going over today.
THANKS for all the suggestions
CUDAK,
I don't get the negativity either. With the tool, it didn't even require us to use the vise. The mechanic just used a crescent wrench and off if came!
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Old 04-01-21, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
.
...people here have chastised me for suggesting this, previously. But in the situation you describe, I would just do a destructive removal of that freewheel, toss the parts, and move on with something newer from Suntour or Shimano with some cog teeth that shift a little better.
Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh View Post
...
Before any attempt, do your best to soak those threads with penetrating oil, i.e. WD-40, Liquid Wrench, etc.
Originally Posted by bikemig View Post
I'd be sorely tempted to do a destructive removal as well. The 2 prong design is a headache. I have a regina freewheel with damaged prongs mounted to a nice wheelset. I plan on doing a destructive removal.
Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
The best remover tools for those Regina 2-notch bodies are the Bicycle Research CT-1 ....perhaps an established bike shop may have one and remove the freewheel for you.
Originally Posted by WGB View Post
Would the tool you speak of be the VAR 186?
Hello all,
THANKS so much for the discussion and suggestion. A LBS had the Bicycle Research tool, and it came off quite nicely (after a good soaking with kroil penetrant) Cheers!
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Old 04-01-21, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Narhay View Post
I would file your suntour remover ever so slightly and try it out. If it ruins it then so be it, then try the destructive method. Punch the lock ring clockwise with a hammer and nail or punch, pull off the cogs and grab the freewheel body with some pliers.
If I had not found a tool in town, I would have done exactly this! THANKS Narhay. A LBS had the Bicycle Research tool and the Regina came right off.
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Old 04-02-21, 05:13 AM
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Glad all's well that ends well!

My criticism had to do with the internal mechanicals of the Regina, especially when compared to a Suntour Perfect or ProCompe of the same vintage.

I'll not go into all the differences, but the pawls are probably the easiest to describe. The Regina pawls are shaped like little flags on a short pole. The "pole" fits into an oversized hole in the inner body. There is a little bit of a grove for the "pole" to pivot on but it does not hold the pawl in place.

As you can see, the pawl springs (in this model and I'm guessing in yours as well) is a pusher leaf spring. This was a big improvement over the previous spring version which was a tiny wire (which flopped around, can fall out, and can easily disengage from the shallow track cut into the back of the pawl). However, I have seen these leaf springs compressed closed, and thus not doing their job. This can be caused by corrosion, contamination, etc..


This is about the best picture I have of a Suntour Perfect inner body without the pawls in place. Notice the precision of the groves in which the pawls pivot. These groves securely hold them in place. Now, to be fair, Suntour used a wire spring as a pusher as did earlier Reginas. However, Suntour's spring is more robust, securely pinned to the body, and the rear guide V in the pawl is deeper.

(This is a Metric threaded Perfect. Out of focus in the bottom right the deep spring V grove can be seen. Notice the upper pivot track is cracked and deformed. I've only seen this once, and IIRC, this was used on a tandem.)

This is a good view looking down on the same Perfect without the bearings installed.


Notice how nicely the upper pivot fits into its slot and is held securely in place. Of course, the lower one is sloppy due to the crack and separation in this instance. Also notice how nicely the pawls fit into the ratchet teeth.

There are other differences, but this is one reason I'd select a Perfect or a ProCompe over a Regina.
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Old 04-02-21, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh View Post
My criticism had to do with the internal mechanicals of the Regina, especially when compared to a Suntour Perfect or ProCompe of the same vintage.
Not to mention, the needlessly complex multiple threaded positions for mounting the sprockets on the body.
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Old 04-02-21, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh View Post
Glad all's well that ends well!

My criticism had to do with the internal mechanicals of the Regina, especially when compared to a Suntour Perfect or ProCompe of the same vintage.

I'll not go into all the differences, but the pawls are probably the easiest to describe. The Regina pawls are shaped like little flags on a short pole. The "pole" fits into an oversized hole in the inner body. There is a little bit of a grove for the "pole" to pivot on but it does not hold the pawl in place.

As you can see, the pawl springs (in this model and I'm guessing in yours as well) is a pusher leaf spring. This was a big improvement over the previous spring version which was a tiny wire (which flopped around, can fall out, and can easily disengage from the shallow track cut into the back of the pawl). However, I have seen these leaf springs compressed closed, and thus not doing their job. This can be caused by corrosion, contamination, etc..


This is about the best picture I have of a Suntour Perfect inner body without the pawls in place. Notice the precision of the groves in which the pawls pivot. These groves securely hold them in place. Now, to be fair, Suntour used a wire spring as a pusher as did earlier Reginas. However, Suntour's spring is more robust, securely pinned to the body, and the rear guide V in the pawl is deeper.

(This is a Metric threaded Perfect. Out of focus in the bottom right the deep spring V grove can be seen. Notice the upper pivot track is cracked and deformed. I've only seen this once, and IIRC, this was used on a tandem.)

This is a good view looking down on the same Perfect without the bearings installed.


Notice how nicely the upper pivot fits into its slot and is held securely in place. Of course, the lower one is sloppy due to the crack and separation in this instance. Also notice how nicely the pawls fit into the ratchet teeth.

There are other differences, but this is one reason I'd select a Perfect or a ProCompe over a Regina.
I love my Suntour Perfect FW's but also have a few Regina's and have had no problem with them, mainly because two were built by you. The most recent one that you built for my ItalVega is great. There is something about that FW that has the most cool "clicking " when I coast to a stop! I guess because I don't work on them I can appreciate them a bit more. The CXS that you built for my daughter's Raleigh is still in service after all these years after the bike shop told us to throw it away! I have an old ORO that was given to me by a retired racer and it has never failed me . Maybe it is time to send it in?
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Old 04-02-21, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh View Post
Glad all's well that ends well!

My criticism had to do with the internal mechanicals of the Regina, especially when compared to a Suntour Perfect or ProCompe of the same vintage.
There are other differences, but this is one reason I'd select a Perfect or a ProCompe over a Regina.
That was quite the education! I have rebuilt freewheels before, but I haven't compared different models with your critical eye. Thanks Pastorbob!
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