Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Help Let me know what frame you think this is. SOLVED!

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Help Let me know what frame you think this is. SOLVED!

Old 04-02-21, 09:50 AM
  #1  
jjhabbs 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
jjhabbs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,557

Bikes: to many to list

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 209 Post(s)
Liked 310 Times in 106 Posts
Help Let me know what frame you think this is. SOLVED!

Hey guys. A friend in town has this frameset. He got it from Mark Gorski himself. The 84 Olympic track gold metal winner. It was one of his training bikes! We're still trying to get a hold of Mark to find out what this frame is. Check out the pics and the vid. Let me know what you think. More clues in the video. It is Italian threaded, Full Columbus tubes!



__________________
From Illinois. Collector of many fine bicycles from all over the world. Subscribe to my Youtube channel. Just search John Haboush
jjhabbs is offline  
Likes For jjhabbs:
Old 04-02-21, 02:25 PM
  #2  
repechage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 15,898
Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1907 Post(s)
Liked 733 Times in 571 Posts
Not a Masi bottom bracket shell.

The Masi M appears much more like the University of Michigan M.

Last edited by repechage; 04-02-21 at 02:28 PM.
repechage is offline  
Old 04-02-21, 06:01 PM
  #3  
Mad Honk 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 1,531

Bikes: Trek 770, Trek 760, Schwinn Paramount, Patelli Professional, Othon Ochsner

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 658 Post(s)
Liked 554 Times in 417 Posts
Back in the early 80's sponsor money was pretty big for a lot of professional riders. Our team was offered $10,000 to be riding a Raleigh USA labeled bike over the finish line at RAAM. AMF was also a fairly big sponsor as well, they were providing all of the bikes for the Little Five Hundred bike race every year. That was about 300 bikes that were donated to the bike race. I suspect the stay end caps were easy to produce and have added to a frame that was being built as a custom for a professional rider. I would think that the frame geometry was not in the touring type of design so the add-ons are a bit suspect as the owner note in the video. There are a handful of builders in the mid-west who could have brazed this one together. Fatic was busy building about this time and may have put it together for Mark, but is just a guess. Smiles, MH
Mad Honk is offline  
Old 04-02-21, 06:51 PM
  #4  
Insidious C. 
Crash Test Dummy
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: PNW
Posts: 1,328

Bikes: One of everything and three of everything French

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 344 Post(s)
Liked 175 Times in 105 Posts
I've only seen that style of fork crown stiffener on Viners and Riggios. The rest of the bike not a match however. Guess- Moser?
__________________
I.C.
Insidious C. is offline  
Old 04-02-21, 06:59 PM
  #5  
krakhaus 
Senior Member
 
krakhaus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Palm Springs, California
Posts: 260
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 127 Post(s)
Liked 256 Times in 96 Posts
Harley Davidson.
krakhaus is offline  
Likes For krakhaus:
Old 04-02-21, 09:54 PM
  #6  
Doug Fattic 
framebuilder
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Niles, Michigan
Posts: 867
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 305 Post(s)
Liked 633 Times in 259 Posts
Originally Posted by Mad Honk View Post
...There are a handful of builders in the mid-west who could have brazed this one together. Fattic was busy building about this time and may have put it together for Mark, but is just a guess. Smiles, MH
I didn't build it. In the late 70's and early 80's I built a few frames for IU guys that rode in the Little 500. By that I mean their personal frames and not what they rode in the 500. I remember one guy coming by to see if somehow a Little 500 bike could be made out of 531. From what I understand, that was against the rules. They all had to ride the same beaters. Did that rule get changed?
Doug Fattic is offline  
Likes For Doug Fattic:
Old 04-02-21, 10:21 PM
  #7  
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 26,586

Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com

Mentioned: 74 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1557 Post(s)
Liked 1,794 Times in 1,038 Posts
Shot in the dark here - especially since I know I've seen a much smaller M on the BB's for this brand - but how about Marinoni? Probably not the case, but they did build the '84 Raleigh USA bikes for the Olympic team; a contracted team frame like this wouldn't necessarily be out of the question for them.

One thing to note is that the BB appears to be cast with the cutout. The edge doesn't look milled.

-Kurt
__________________








Last edited by cudak888; 04-02-21 at 10:25 PM.
cudak888 is offline  
Old 04-03-21, 07:08 AM
  #8  
T-Mar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 21,398
Mentioned: 567 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3956 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,462 Times in 1,056 Posts
Marinoni, being born in Italy and trained by Rossin did build with Italian threading. The ''M" cutout is the correct size and shape for circa 1980. The only issue is that the orientation is reversed. Typically, the narrow leg is on the left, not the right. The S/N format also matches Marinoni and, if so, represents 1980, which would be a good fit with the Portacatena dropouts. It should be easy enough to verify or refute by contacting Marinoni with the serial number. They have all their old build sheets and, in my experience, are very helpful in this regard.

Edit: S/N would indicate 1981, not 1980 as typed.

Last edited by T-Mar; 04-03-21 at 02:21 PM.
T-Mar is offline  
Likes For T-Mar:
Old 04-03-21, 07:33 AM
  #9  
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 26,586

Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com

Mentioned: 74 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1557 Post(s)
Liked 1,794 Times in 1,038 Posts
Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
The only issue is that the orientation is reversed.
Mistake by the BB manufacturer? The stamping blank would have been in the correct orientation; could be someone screwed up and forgot that it would wind up reversed when transferred to the shell.

-Kurt
__________________







cudak888 is offline  
Old 04-03-21, 09:13 AM
  #10  
jjhabbs 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
jjhabbs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,557

Bikes: to many to list

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 209 Post(s)
Liked 310 Times in 106 Posts
It seems that many believe its an Marinoni. Ive seen a few with the same lugs. I wish I could find another one to confirm and confirm what decals were on it so I could restore it to it's original glory.

Thanks for your input everyone!

jj
__________________
From Illinois. Collector of many fine bicycles from all over the world. Subscribe to my Youtube channel. Just search John Haboush
jjhabbs is offline  
Likes For jjhabbs:
Old 04-03-21, 10:42 AM
  #11  
unworthy1
Stop reading my posts!
 
unworthy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,425
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 791 Post(s)
Liked 356 Times in 289 Posts
Second question: who made this (IC?) BB shell? Never seen that mark on a shell before but looks to be cast-in. Did Marinoni have a "special connection" to an Italian mfgr.?
unworthy1 is offline  
Likes For unworthy1:
Old 04-03-21, 04:09 PM
  #12  
Mad Honk 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 1,531

Bikes: Trek 770, Trek 760, Schwinn Paramount, Patelli Professional, Othon Ochsner

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 658 Post(s)
Liked 554 Times in 417 Posts
@doug Fatic,
That rule is still in effect. I was the chief steward for the race during the late 70's and early 80's so I was in charge of being sure they were all the same. That meant a lot of late night bike checks and calling offending teams to come change front chain rings and rear rings to hold the gearing the same for all teams. I also required 3X spoke patterns to keep chances of wrecks with injuries. So many teams tried to make a change to radial lacing for the wheels. My thought process was the radial spoke pattern would break down from the hard braking force applied during every exchange of rider. The idea was to prevent riders from serious injury from mechanical failures. Having to call a team mechanic and tell him that the rear hub was assembled wrong and the braking mechanism would not work was not a pleasant thing to do. I heard a lot of belly-aching from riders and mechanics but there were no serious injuries during my watch for the race.
AMF was the major supplier of race bikes during that time. In the nineties the Student Foundation moved to a bidding process for race suppliers and there have been multiple suppliers since then. My racing days were on the old track and football stadium that was used for the last time to film Breaking Away, and then torn down and turned into an Arboretum. There is now a Bell Tower that is roughly where turn one and two were on the track. The race today is run at the Armstrong Stadium and the infield is the home of our soccer team. I trust all is well for you and spring in southern Michigan has not been too harsh. Smiles, MH

Last edited by Mad Honk; 04-03-21 at 09:39 PM.
Mad Honk is offline  
Likes For Mad Honk:
Old 04-03-21, 06:06 PM
  #13  
Doug Fattic 
framebuilder
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Niles, Michigan
Posts: 867
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 305 Post(s)
Liked 633 Times in 259 Posts
This same question about who made these AMF frames came up on the Classic Rendezvous list and George Mount responded: No "mystery. Marinoni made bikes one year and Eisentraut another year. I have my amf marinoni still stock equipment in my garage. 78 or 79, can't recall which one which year."

George Mount was one of our best American racers in the 70's. We thought it was amazing he came in 6th at the Olympic
road race in 1976. Our level in the States in that era was nowhere near the Europeans.
Doug Fattic is offline  
Likes For Doug Fattic:
Old 04-03-21, 07:35 PM
  #14  
jjhabbs 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
jjhabbs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,557

Bikes: to many to list

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 209 Post(s)
Liked 310 Times in 106 Posts
Updated video coming soon! I found someone with the same bike. George Mount contacted me as well. He sent me pics.

Marinoni it is!

John
__________________
From Illinois. Collector of many fine bicycles from all over the world. Subscribe to my Youtube channel. Just search John Haboush
jjhabbs is offline  
Likes For jjhabbs:
Old 04-03-21, 07:44 PM
  #15  
jjhabbs 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
jjhabbs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,557

Bikes: to many to list

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 209 Post(s)
Liked 310 Times in 106 Posts
Originally Posted by Mad Honk View Post
@doug Fatic,
That rule is still in effect. I was the chief steward for the race during the late 70's and early 80's so I was in charge of being sure they were all the same. That meant a lot of late night bike checks and calling offending teams to come change front chain rings and rear rings to hold the gearing the same for all teams. I also required 3X spoke patterns to keep chances of wrecks with injuries. So many teams tried to make a change to radial lacing for the wheels. My thought process was the radial spoke pattern would break down from the hard braking force applied during every exchange of rider. The idea was to prevent riders from serious injury from mechanical failures. Having to call a team mechanic and tell him that the rear hub was assembled wrong and the braking mechanism would not work was not a pleasant thing to do. I heard a lot of belly-aching from riders and mechanics but there were no serious injuries during my watch for the race.
AMF was the major supplier of race bikes during that time. In the nineties the Student Foundation moved to a bidding process for race suppliers and there have been multiple suppliers since then. My racing days were on the old track and football stadium that was used for the last time to film Breaking Away, and then torn down and turned into an Arboretum. There is now a Bell Tower that is roughly where turn one and two were on the track. The race today is run at the Armstrong Stadium and the infield is the home of our soccer team. I trust all is well for you and spring in southern Michigan has not been too harsh. Smiles, MH

Wow, Thanks for the history lesson. Awsome.

Thanks

JJ
__________________
From Illinois. Collector of many fine bicycles from all over the world. Subscribe to my Youtube channel. Just search John Haboush
jjhabbs is offline  
Old 04-03-21, 09:36 PM
  #16  
jjhabbs 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
jjhabbs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,557

Bikes: to many to list

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 209 Post(s)
Liked 310 Times in 106 Posts
Mark Gorski's mystery frame solved

Thanks to you guys here on BikeForums the mystery is solved. Also someone posted my video on Classic Rendezvous. George Mount saw my video and responded. Check out the video!
__________________
From Illinois. Collector of many fine bicycles from all over the world. Subscribe to my Youtube channel. Just search John Haboush
jjhabbs is offline  
Likes For jjhabbs:
Old 04-03-21, 10:10 PM
  #17  
Mad Honk 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 1,531

Bikes: Trek 770, Trek 760, Schwinn Paramount, Patelli Professional, Othon Ochsner

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 658 Post(s)
Liked 554 Times in 417 Posts
jjhabbs,
It is pretty easy when it is reality. Just like what Doug says about having one in the garage. Sometimes it is best to find the folks who have good documentation. I would suggest a trip to Niles for you from Chicago (heck it is only an hour away on I-94). The early seventies were a great time to be in the bike business, and the eighties were even better (I think we sold about $1m in 1982 at the Castleton location). And then I came back to Bloomington to work in the bike industry and then for the University. There are a bunch of folks who were active in cycling that are still around the middle Indiana area. Myself, Tom Schwoegler, Bob Holohan, Steve Dodds, Jeanne Smith, and a few others. Lots of folks even Race Across America riders including the Haldemans, Beeson, And Tanner, from just here in the local area. I am lucky to have been a part of this great history, and racing memories. Smile, MH
Mad Honk is offline  
Old 04-04-21, 12:19 AM
  #18  
jjhabbs 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
jjhabbs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,557

Bikes: to many to list

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 209 Post(s)
Liked 310 Times in 106 Posts
Originally Posted by Mad Honk View Post
jjhabbs,
It is pretty easy when it is reality. Just like what Doug says about having one in the garage. Sometimes it is best to find the folks who have good documentation. I would suggest a trip to Niles for you from Chicago (heck it is only an hour away on I-94). The early seventies were a great time to be in the bike business, and the eighties were even better (I think we sold about $1m in 1982 at the Castleton location). And then I came back to Bloomington to work in the bike industry and then for the University. There are a bunch of folks who were active in cycling that are still around the middle Indiana area. Myself, Tom Schwoegler, Bob Holohan, Steve Dodds, Jeanne Smith, and a few others. Lots of folks even Race Across America riders including the Haldemans, Beeson, And Tanner, from just here in the local area. I am lucky to have been a part of this great history, and racing memories. Smile, MH
You're right! When your there and experiencing the culture the knowledge comes easier. I worked at a shop from 82 to 89 and selling bicycles was like shooting fish in a barrel. We only know what we are exposed to. We carried Schwinn, Trek, Miyata, Nishiki, and Cannondale. Of course we fixed many other brands. Cruising thru Ochsner, Ten Speed Drive imports and others exposed me to much more. But still limited. After that I was the GT sales rep for Chicago from 89 to 99 and that was a great time. Honestly my love for the bicycle diminished, All the brands turned into a decal on a China made bicycle. Once I started collecting the classics my love increased.

Niles isn't far from me. Whats in Niles I need to go see?

Cheers.

JJ
__________________
From Illinois. Collector of many fine bicycles from all over the world. Subscribe to my Youtube channel. Just search John Haboush
jjhabbs is offline  
Old 04-04-21, 06:17 AM
  #19  
steelbikeguy
Senior Member
 
steelbikeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 2,568
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 947 Post(s)
Liked 780 Times in 413 Posts
Nice that you got that feedback! The CR list has some impressive folks who mostly lurk, but speak up now and then.

It would be great to see the frame restored, but that probably depends on finding someone who would ride it and could justify the expense.

Steve in Peoria
steelbikeguy is offline  
Old 04-04-21, 08:05 AM
  #20  
Doug Fattic 
framebuilder
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Niles, Michigan
Posts: 867
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 305 Post(s)
Liked 633 Times in 259 Posts
Originally Posted by jjhabbs View Post
...Niles isn't far from me. Whats in Niles I need to go see? JJ
Niles is a town of 15.000 that used to be a manufacturing hub but of course most of those companies have closed. It is just across the state line from South Bend, Indiana and Notre Dame University. A new bike trail has been opened between the 2 cities. I joke in my pre-class information emails to my students coming to learn how to build frames that Niles is the go-to vacation spot for in-the-know cool people. There is a number of antique shops including one in the former Montgomery Ward store. He was born in Niles. The St. Joe river divides the town and part of the bicycle trail goes along its shore. My art students recognize the French Paper Mill company that has a dam on the river to power its machines.

Niles has a museum behind a fantastic old house that became the city hall. It houses 12 pictographs drawn by Sitting Bull. He is famous because of the Battle of the Little Bighorn (often known as Custer's Last Stand). On their day off some of my frame building class students go to the Studebaker Museum in South Bend.

If you take I-94 and US 12 to Niles (instead of taking the Indiana Toll Road) you go through the small town of Three Oaks, Michigan - which is the start and finish for the 5000 rider Apple Cider Century in the fall. It has a bicycle museum you probably want to stop and see. It houses a very light weight steel bicycle I made in the late 70's.

I look forward to you stopping my to see my framebuiding shop and my small collection of C&V frames I keep around to inspire students.
Doug Fattic is offline  
Old 04-04-21, 08:13 AM
  #21  
iab
Senior Member
 
iab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NW Burbs, Chicago
Posts: 10,846
Mentioned: 150 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2245 Post(s)
Liked 1,427 Times in 659 Posts
I have a question. After spending time and effort to determine what it was, why would you do anything other than make it what it was?
iab is offline  
Old 04-04-21, 08:19 AM
  #22  
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 26,586

Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com

Mentioned: 74 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1557 Post(s)
Liked 1,794 Times in 1,038 Posts
What gets me is why AMF would fund the creation of a sponsored bike and then allow the contract builder to throw their logos on it. Hard to tell it's an AMF when it clearly reads "Marinoni" if it gets photographed and winds up in a cycling publication.

-Kurt
__________________







cudak888 is offline  
Old 04-04-21, 09:08 AM
  #23  
T-Mar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 21,398
Mentioned: 567 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3956 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,462 Times in 1,056 Posts
Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
Mistake by the BB manufacturer? The stamping blank would have been in the correct orientation; could be someone screwed up and forgot that it would wind up reversed when transferred to the shell.

-Kurt
Yes, that's a possibility. If so, the stamping die must have broken sometime between 1980 and 1981, as the I've seem frames with 1980 S/N having the correct orientation. You can't reverse the orientation on a stamping die or mould insert. They would have to have been manufactured incorrectly.

The only situation where it could be reversed would be if it was milled using a through-hole template. I know that Marinoni had a pantograph milling machine but typically templates are blind hole, which would make reversal impossible, unless the template was in error.
T-Mar is offline  
Likes For T-Mar:
Old 04-04-21, 09:59 AM
  #24  
repechage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 15,898
Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1907 Post(s)
Liked 733 Times in 571 Posts
Was there not a thread on this already active?
or is this a campaign for video views?
repechage is offline  
Old 04-04-21, 10:08 AM
  #25  
unworthy1
Stop reading my posts!
 
unworthy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,425
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 791 Post(s)
Liked 356 Times in 289 Posts
Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
Yes, that's a possibility. If so, the stamping die must have broken sometime between 1980 and 1981, as the I've seem frames with 1980 S/N having the correct orientation. You can't reverse the orientation on a stamping die or mould insert. They would have to have been manufactured incorrectly.

The only situation where it could be reversed would be if it was milled using a through-hole template. I know that Marinoni had a pantograph milling machine but typically templates are blind hole, which would make reversal impossible, unless the template was in error.
I recall years back seeing the same issue with a "reverse M" on a frame that was ID'd as a genuine Marinoni, but in that case I think it was on a forkcrown. Wherever that was located it has happened before.
unworthy1 is offline  
Likes For unworthy1:

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.