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Need help identifying the year of my PX10 frame

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Need help identifying the year of my PX10 frame

Old 04-20-21, 10:30 AM
  #1  
cdaniels
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Need help identifying the year of my PX10 frame

I have this PX10 frame and want to know what year it is. My best guess is early 60's. The fork is not original to the frame.. The rear dropouts are stamped L.J.Simplex and have the thumb tab. The seat tube decal seems to be a 63, but that would mean a rivit on headtube badge and there are no rivet holes. Also there is an X stamped on the B/B right in the center where the serial number would be and the serial number is back against the chainstays.

Anyone have any ideas? I appreciate any input you might have.









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Old 04-20-21, 10:44 AM
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employment of the NERVEX shell with nozzle cut 158 may be a helpful clue for some of our rampant lion experts

we are all probably more familar with seeing the PX as being constructed with a shell exhibiting nozzle cut nr. 162


-----
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Old 04-20-21, 01:14 PM
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There are a few members on the Tonton Velo forum that might be able to date your frame using the serial number.
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Old 04-20-21, 01:37 PM
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Pre 64
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Old 04-20-21, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by miamijim View Post
Pre 64
Interesting. I thought the 6-digit s/n starting with a 7 pointed to 1967. I would have expected to see a riveted-on plate with the serial number, so maybe the stamped numbers are after market and presumably (not necessarily) reflect the original.
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Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
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Old 04-20-21, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by John E View Post
Interesting. I thought the 6-digit s/n starting with a 7 pointed to 1967. I would have expected to see a riveted-on plate with the serial number, so maybe the stamped numbers are after market and presumably (not necessarily) reflect the original.

John there's a loose correlation between number of digits and decade produced but I've seen enough verified bikes/frames that contradict it as well.


In '63 and '64 Peugeot earned World Champion titles. In '63 they switched over to the now classic 'checker board' decal scheme. It wouldn't be possible for a '63 model to have WC stripes as they didn't know they'd win a WC. Based on that '64 would be the first year for WC stripes and checkerboard decals. Everything thing else from that time period is pre-64.
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Old 04-23-21, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by cdaniels View Post
I have this PX10 frame and want to know what year it is. My best guess is early 60's. The fork is not original to the frame.. The rear dropouts are stamped L.J.Simplex and have the thumb tab. The seat tube decal seems to be a 63, but that would mean a rivit on headtube badge and there are no rivet holes. Also there is an X stamped on the B/B right in the center where the serial number would be and the serial number is back against the chainstays.

Anyone have any ideas? I appreciate any input you might have.

...

...
Judging from the font in your frame's seattube-logo it might be a rather late blue&yellow-PX10. Earlier ones had cursive lettering, later ones block lettering (my observation).
That for me makes it a late 1962 frame.
From 1963 on, PA10s and PX10s were white with those distinctive b/w-checkerboards. At least on the european market.
The official teambikes in 1963 (spring classics, Tour de France etc.) were white with checkerboards, anyway (see above).

Rivets attaching the Peugeot-badge to the headtube were used more or less randomly by the factory in those days (also my observation). I have seen many blue (+ yellow) or green (+ red) PX10 frames - without drill holes - missing their badges.

(maybe they applied a better glue in later years since I don't recall ever seeing a mid-sixties white PX10 without its headtube badge. In addition, riveted badges were more common then)
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Old 04-23-21, 05:10 PM
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Thanks for the help guys, 63 it is then.

Anyone know what that "X" on the bottom bracket means?
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Old 05-12-21, 04:39 AM
  #9  
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Early 60s PX10 frame

Very interesting thread! I'm trying to date the PX10 frame I found recently (badly refinished, so no choice but to strip and refin.) which has the same LJ Simplex stampings on the RDs and earlier style S/N number stamp.

The bike came with a Stronglight 63 crankset, so if that's original then I assume the frame is unlikely to be much earlier than 1963.

Any thoughts most welcome, as I need to source some period-correct parts, once I know the period...



The frame is undamaged, despite the fork appearance (phone camera lens effect).

Note threaded hole and S/N font

What does the H denote?


Originally Posted by qd-s View Post
Judging from the font in your frame's seattube-logo it might be a rather late blue&yellow-PX10. Earlier ones had cursive lettering, later ones block lettering (my observation).
That for me makes it a late 1962 frame.
From 1963 on, PA10s and PX10s were white with those distinctive b/w-checkerboards. At least on the european market.
The official teambikes in 1963 (spring classics, Tour de France etc.) were white with checkerboards, anyway (see above).

Rivets attaching the Peugeot-badge to the headtube were used more or less randomly by the factory in those days (also my observation). I have seen many blue (+ yellow) or green (+ red) PX10 frames - without drill holes - missing their badges.

(maybe they applied a better glue in later years since I don't recall ever seeing a mid-sixties white PX10 without its headtube badge. In addition, riveted badges were more common then)
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Old 05-13-21, 10:54 AM
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Did you find any clues to the frame's original color, e.g. on the steerer tube (white vs. blue or green)?
Fork crown would indicate a PX10 later than ca. 1965/66 (if the fork is original to the frame).

Frame number not very helpful, but from my data collection rather suggests a pre-1963 PX10.

Stronglight 63 crank came in 1963, along with the white color scheme.
Problem is, the forerunning Stronglight 57 cranks often have been altered to become de facto SL 63s. See (foot of page/addition):
https://www.classiclightweights.co.u...erless-cranks/
So dating the frame is intricate/impossible from the crank alone.

Components are very different for pre-1963 and 1963 (and later) PX10s.
Pre-1963 stuff is hard to find (RD nearly unobtainable: Simplex Juy Export 61 derailleur)
and therefore expensive but generally much more durable, because from 1963 on Peugeot made excessive use of then fashionable (and light) Delrin (= first white, later black plastic).

Many PX10s (pre- and post-1963) therefore have been equipped with "wrong" components in later years.

Frame evolution:
Peugeot PX10 Evolution
Components:
Master Catalogues

"H"-stamping (dropout): sorry, no idea. I have not found that on any of my frames.
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Old 05-13-21, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by John E View Post
Interesting. I thought the 6-digit s/n starting with a 7 pointed to 1967. I would have expected to see a riveted-on plate with the serial number, so maybe the stamped numbers are after market and presumably (not necessarily) reflect the original.
I was under the impression the riveted plate was standard c.1970-77 or so, and ran roughly concurrently with the 1970-74 and 1975-77 graphics. As an aside, the hand-stamped serial number is more neatly done and further back than the 5-digit numbers I've seen on c.1973-74 PX-10E and PX-10LE with the steeper head and seat angles and straighter forks.
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Old 05-14-21, 03:39 AM
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rmfrance, i think you have a 63 px10 frame.
the fork on you bike makes me wonder, when did peugeot first change the fork crown?

Last edited by gbi; 05-14-21 at 03:45 AM.
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Old 05-14-21, 07:43 AM
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rmfrance -

if the bottom bracket spindle which came with the cycle's model 63 chainset is original to the cycle it should exhibit a two digit number marked on one of the drive side taper flats




practice of making this marking seemed to cease by the late 1960's

do not know its meaning; have conjectured a batch number or inspection number

have witnessed three differing numbers

-----
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Old 05-15-21, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by rmfrance View Post
Very interesting thread! I'm trying to date the PX10 frame I found recently (badly refinished, so no choice but to strip and refin.) which has the same LJ Simplex stampings on the RDs and earlier style S/N number stamp.

The bike came with a Stronglight 63 crankset, so if that's original then I assume the frame is unlikely to be much earlier than 1963.

Any thoughts most welcome, as I need to source some period-correct parts, once I know the period...

....



What does the H denote?
Originally Posted by qd-s View Post
...

"H"-stamping (dropout): sorry, no idea. I have not found that on any of my frames.
I apologize for malicious lying! (and my bad pics below)

After closer inspection I found a letter each stamped into the right dropout of two of my early 60s PX10s.

Capital M: ca.1962 blue (+ yellow) PX, frame no. 97091x



Capital H: early ca.1963 white (+ checkerboards) PX, frame no. 24225x (probably the earliest of my six white ca.1963 PX10s)



Still no idea what these letters may stand for.
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Old 05-18-21, 02:16 AM
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Wow - what a gratifying response! In view of that I'll answer points raised here, rather than separately:
  • I spotted the fork crown, which is the same Nervex Pro style as my other '60s PX10 (which also has the same dropouts).
  • The frame seems not to have been white; under two thick coats of poorly-applied red/black I found traces of what looked like violet (just visible in the pic of the BB) but could be blue. Violet obviously doesn't fit, timewise, with the typical '60s features of the frame, so either it was refinished later or was a factory custom colour order.
  • The dropout letter stamping certainly looks like it might be a date code, so perhaps some more research of Simplex history might produce some insight.
  • The crank code is new to me, and I'll check my spindle, to see whether I have one.
  • The archaic style of the BB numerals intrigues me - there must have been a changeover point to the later, more blocky style.
Thanks once again everyone for your thoughts - I really appreciate the time taken to help solve the mystery. I must admit that I've been hoping that this could be a blue/yellow model to keep my '60s white/black example company, as it seems to be right on the cusp of the changeover. We'll see.
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Old 05-18-21, 02:51 AM
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Thanks for that - I've just found the same number on mine:






Originally Posted by juvela View Post
-----

rmfrance -

if the bottom bracket spindle which came with the cycle's model 63 chainset is original to the cycle it should exhibit a two digit number marked on one of the drive side taper flats




practice of making this marking seemed to cease by the late 1960's

do not know its meaning; have conjectured a batch number or inspection number

have witnessed three differing numbers

-----
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Old 05-10-22, 06:37 AM
  #17  
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To move things along a little, I'm pretty certain that the spots of paint which I thought were violet are in fact blue, which would make it one of the last blue-yellow frames produced.
For anyone trying to find a paint match, I'm told that the Peugeot colour is listed as 'Bleu Outre-Mer'.
I also believe the fork to be original to the frame, since it has the same hints of overspray colour, in which case the crown must have been used during a gap in supply for the plainer 'flat top' design I would have expected to see.
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