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Risk assessment -- radial laced wheels

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Risk assessment -- radial laced wheels

Old 04-27-21, 03:30 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by Duragrouch View Post
2)The wide flange helps in that it increases spacing between holes, but the flange needs to be strong enough to resist radial tearout and circumferential cracks from one hole to another, meaning extra metal radially outboard, and high strength aluminum, and still, aluminum has poor fatigue life, most especially in tension. Also, the only radial spokes above that are sound are the ones between the lightening oval holes on the flange; Those pulling directly across that oval hole are putting a ton of radial bending load on the flange there, and it's just not designed for it, it will fail.

Tangential lacing came about for a reason, it's so much stronger with respect to the hub flange, and the longer spokes ride better, and stay in true longer because of the bending tension on paired spokes due to lacing.... I want 32 or 36 hole, 3 or 4 cross lacing
Sound reasoning. Of course the overarching question on a wheel like that is "Why?"

When I first started riding 32's I thought I could feel the difference between a 32 and a 36, other things being equal (which of course they aren't). I still think so. But has it ever made any difference in my riding? Nah. Were I competing would it have made any difference? Nah.
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Old 04-27-21, 07:50 AM
  #52  
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jimmuller - I feel a difference when a spoke breaks on the rear wheel! The wheel will not turn from the rubbing on the brake pad!
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Old 04-27-21, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by SJX426 View Post
jimmuller - I feel a difference when a spoke breaks on the rear wheel! The wheel will not turn from the rubbing on the brake pad!
Good point! With that I cannot quibble, for I have been there myself.

However I can state truthfully and proudly (which will certainly make a spoke break tomorrow) that I have never broken a spoke on a wheel which I built or which I trued before riding. Yes, I have built most of my wheels, even the tandem's rear wheel, and up until last year was riding between 5000 and 8000 miles a year. Of course you may argue that when one spreads the riding out over so many bikes no single one of them gets all that much use, and I could not quibble with that point either. Okay, enough bragging for today.
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Old 04-27-21, 02:54 PM
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"My" wheels have not broken a spoke either!
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Old 04-28-21, 01:21 AM
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Originally Posted by SJX426 View Post
jimmuller - I feel a difference when a spoke breaks on the rear wheel! The wheel will not turn from the rubbing on the brake pad!
I broke a drive side spoke on a 32-spoke wheel last weekend and it barely had a wobble -- didn't touch the brake pads at all. I only noticed because of the noise it was making. I think that's partly due to the low tension on the NDS and partly due to the relatively beefy modern clincher rim (DT Swiss R460).
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Old 05-01-21, 11:09 AM
  #56  
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Radially laced wheels

Andy,
I wouldn't be too concerned about the radially laced front wheels and same lacing on the non-drive side of the rear. Whoever owned the bike before you was concerned with weight shaving and maximizing performance. Radially laced wheels use the shortest spokes possible, so the weight savings are significant. There is also a slight aerodynamic advantage of this lacing pattern, as spokes are not crossing over each other, which wind is not passing the crossed spokes. You will often see such laced wheels in assorted bicycle races and competitions. They are not good at handling twisting and torsion so you won't see these (radially laced wheels) on the drive side of the rear. Ride the bike and enjoy it. If they weren't attached to tubular rims, I would buy them off of you.
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Old 01-12-22, 04:13 PM
  #57  
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The oldish thread seems relevant to some advice I am seeking.

I bought a lovely like-new tubular wheelset in 2009 off Ebay for my wife's (116 lb wet) 1985 Bianchi Brava (see pic) but later swapped them for a clincher wheelset. The tubular wheelset has 32/32 hole Record low flange hubs, Mavic GEL 280 ultralight rims, radially spoked front wheel, and half radial/half 3x (drive side) spoked rear wheel. I now want to use the wheels myself (185 lb dressed) after converting them to clinchers by simply swapping the GEL 280's with Sun M13 II rims using the original spokes and lacing (spoke lengths look about right).

My question is - will the wheels likely be safe with my weight with the radial lacing?...........Thanks in advance.

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Old 01-12-22, 04:44 PM
  #58  
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@sced on one of my tubular set-ups I have a Frame Ergal laced to a 36 hole Record low flange hub. I am also in the 180 lb range. For what it's worth I've had no issues with this set-up. I am running a Fiamme Red label in the rear with 3-cross so I can't comment on the 1/2 radial rear wheel set up.

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Old 01-12-22, 05:37 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by sced View Post
My question is - will the wheels likely be safe with my weight with the radial lacing?...........Thanks in advance.
I'm about the same weight (after Christmas...) and have no issues with my radial front or half radial rear.
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Old 01-13-22, 07:49 AM
  #60  
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I remember this old thread and thought SJX426 illuminated the risk well back in '21. Risk is simply likelihood times consequence. At your weight you might assess the likelihood very low on the surfaces you ride, but here I believe it is the consequence which bears heavily on the Risk. Just me, but due to the consequence I can see as possible the likelihood would need to be so small as to make accounting for it unreasonable to accept the risk.
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Old 01-13-22, 10:46 AM
  #61  
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Time trial wheels to me.
Fiamme rims can't take lots of tension so...
the rear has that crows foot pattern.
I am not a fan of radial lacing.
sell them off?
rebuild 3x- IF the rims have no distortion around the spokes
if so, trade them for a clean set of similar high flange hubs.
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Old 01-13-22, 10:58 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by sced View Post



My question is - will the wheels likely be safe with my weight with the radial lacing?...........Thanks in advance.

They'll be fine even with the 280's . You should give them a try with some premium tires, really a nice combo.

But i have personal experience with the GEL 280 radial laced combo , and i was 20 pounds heavier than you. I used them for everything. Training, criteriums, time trials, -- whatever -- for a year (about 12,000 miles ) until i moved to a different shifting system and away from a 7 speed freewheel
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Old 01-13-22, 03:14 PM
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By my count in this thread 8 people have owned radially laced wheels and only 1 said they were problematic.

Velobase lists the GEL 280 at 295g and an Ebay listing gives the Sun M13 II at 464g. So might the Sun's extra 169g equate to a stiffer rim which would distribute loads more evenly to reduce maximum spoke stresses?
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Old 01-13-22, 06:53 PM
  #64  
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All I remember is, BITD, you will be considered insanely reckless, if you ever ride on radially spoked wheels on the road. Even just having 32 spoke wheels were considered not so safe.....
These days there does not seem to be the same worries about riding radially spoked wheels anymore, as they are everywhere.
Did hub, rim, spoke design/metallurgy really change that much, for the better??
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Old 01-13-22, 07:52 PM
  #65  
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I've built a few dozen sets of wheels, and trued a few hundred more. I also have several radial front wheels built with old Campagnolo, Suntour and Dura-Ace hubs. First, these hubs were never designed to be built up radial; the flanges are too skimpy where the holes are drilled. Look at a modern hub and you'll see how much more bulk is in this area. The reason why the old hubs were made like this is that radial lacing makes no practical sense, except perhaps that it looks 'Kewl'. Remember, these were the days when Tullio told you what you should have, as opposed to the component makers pandering to the latest fad and misguided consumer whim.

Nevertheless, I have never had a flange failure on my bastard wheels, possibly only because I am light and careful. But I have impact dinged and torn the sockets out of Fiamme Yellow label rims; every 5 years or so. I only have 3 or 4 more of these rims in my stash. BTW: 280 gram rims are too light for use on the rear; I suggest the more robust Red label version. Or better, Campy Victory or Record tubular rims.

OK: should you rebuild these wheels?... My recommendation is no. When the spoke heads 'bed' into the softer alu of the hub flanges, it leaves a groove - obviously. If you now relace with a different pattern, then you have 3 grooves, and the flange will fail at that point like a piece of pizza coming out of a fresh pie. I have seen this failure mode. If you relace as per the original pattern, then you'll only have one 'groove'.

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Old 01-13-22, 07:56 PM
  #66  
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Another thing.. having a single spoke or hub flange failure on a front wheel with a light rim and 16 spokes will almost guarantee you'll experience a major crisis. As in waking up in a hospital ward and seeing that the calendar on the wall shows the date: 2026.

Having the same failure on a mid-weight laced rim with 36 spokes: you may not even notice it.

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Old 01-13-22, 09:40 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by Chombi1 View Post
All I remember is, BITD, you will be considered insanely reckless, if you ever ride on radially spoked wheels on the road. Even just having 32 spoke wheels were considered not so safe.....
These days there does not seem to be the same worries about riding radially spoked wheels anymore, as they are everywhere.
Did hub, rim, spoke design/metallurgy really change that much, for the better??
Horses for courses I think.
for a time trial bike, Go, even move to a bladed spoke.
I have a set of time trial wheels with 28, slightly bladed spokes and Wolber aerodynamic rims, for time trial or coffeehouse runs.
Be the life of the party.
Saw lots of guys with radial front wheels way back, but they were not front of the pack riders. 32 or 36 spokes.
Way back the UCI had a minimum spoke count too, I want to say 20. Scheeren made 20 spoke rims.
Pino had an interesting take on radial wheels, straight spokes threaded directly into the hub, special spoke nipples with locking nuts on the inside of the rim, supposedly the spoke could act as a thin column at the bottom of the wheel.
The spokes were titanium too.
I have a set of Mavic Crosslink atb wheels, and the front is radial with the spokes threaded straight in. Pretty bomb proof.
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Old 01-17-22, 12:36 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by repechage View Post
Pino had an interesting take on radial wheels, straight spokes threaded directly into the hub, special spoke nipples with locking nuts on the inside of the rim, supposedly the spoke could act as a thin column at the bottom of the wheel.
Hmm. If you believe Jobst Brandt's The Bicycle Wheel that make no sense. But don't listen to me. I'm just an old-time rider who has built almost all the wheels on my current fleet, even the tandem's rear wheel, whose wheels so far have not failed (despite a broken spoke one or twice) and who has a reasonably significant technical background. So who am I to disagree?

It has been a long time since I posted much on BF. Since I'm not going two the office I'm not riding much except indoors. All those lovely bikes are sitting idle, or in a few case being given away.
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Old 01-17-22, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by jimmuller View Post
Hmm. If you believe Jobst Brandt's The Bicycle Wheel that make no sense. But don't listen to me. I'm just an old-time rider who has built almost all the wheels on my current fleet, even the tandem's rear wheel, whose wheels so far have not failed (despite a broken spoke one or twice) and who has a reasonably significant technical background. So who am I to disagree?

It has been a long time since I posted much on BF. Since I'm not going two the office I'm not riding much except indoors. All those lovely bikes are sitting idle, or in a few case being given away.
I'm sure Pino and Jobst would disagree.
in Pino's defense post mortem, his hub held the spoke in column as it was radial and the spoke threaded straight in. In a typical j bend spoke arrangement of the day, the type of wheel Jobst was describing, he has a reasonable argument.

just recalling my conversation with Pino at the Nationals in 1974, reviewing his brazed ti track bike with the LH drive. Very cool.
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Old 01-17-22, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Chombi1 View Post
All I remember is, BITD, you will be considered insanely reckless, if you ever ride on radially spoked wheels on the road. Even just having 32 spoke wheels were considered not so safe.....
These days there does not seem to be the same worries about riding radially spoked wheels anymore, as they are everywhere.
Did hub, rim, spoke design/metallurgy really change that much, for the better??
Absolutely. Modern (quality) wheelsets are incredibly light and far more durable than wheels of yesteryear for the most part.
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Old 01-17-22, 02:41 PM
  #71  
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When Merckx was young and Reckless?


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Old 01-17-22, 02:50 PM
  #72  
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I have been using radial front wheels since around ‘89 and never had a problem.
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Old 01-17-22, 02:54 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by sced View Post


The oldish thread seems relevant to some advice I am seeking.

I bought a lovely like-new tubular wheelset in 2009 off Ebay for my wife's (116 lb wet) 1985 Bianchi Brava (see pic) but later swapped them for a clincher wheelset. The tubular wheelset has 32/32 hole Record low flange hubs, Mavic GEL 280 ultralight rims, radially spoked front wheel, and half radial/half 3x (drive side) spoked rear wheel. I now want to use the wheels myself (185 lb dressed) after converting them to clinchers by simply swapping the GEL 280's with Sun M13 II rims using the original spokes and lacing (spoke lengths look about right).

My question is - will the wheels likely be safe with my weight with the radial lacing?...........Thanks in advance.
Beautiful Bianchi. Looks like my favorite RD. They are beautiful wheels, you should try shopping them around before taking them apart. Someone might like them for their wall hanger
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Old 01-17-22, 07:25 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by Bianchigirll View Post
Beautiful Bianchi. Looks like my favorite RD. They are beautiful wheels, you should try shopping them around before taking them apart. Someone might like them for their wall hanger
The responses to my question have convinced me that I'll buy some nice tubulars and just ride the wheels as is. I had some lightweight Super Champion Medaille D'or rims 47 years ago on my Holdsworth spoked 3x. They didn't last long, nor did the replacement Fiamme yellow labels. I was an invincible curb-hopping teen, but 30 lb skinnier than now. The responses here also allayed my concern about the radial spoking. Thanks!

btw: RD is a 1st gen Chorus and my fave too (have 3).

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Old 01-18-22, 09:57 AM
  #75  
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Should have gone back to BMX.
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