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A stunning mystery bike on San Fran CL

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A stunning mystery bike on San Fran CL

Old 05-17-21, 02:05 PM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by cbrstar View Post
What's the little post on the head tube for, Is it for a light? I don't think I have seen that before.
The peg is on the head tube is for a pump. The lugs look like those of a 3 Rensho (pronounced San Rensho). Certainly not a color I recognize.
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Old 05-17-21, 03:06 PM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by bicyforev View Post
(pronounced san rensho)
wow it took me thirteen years on this forum to learn this
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Old 05-17-21, 05:24 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by bicyforev View Post
The peg is on the head tube is for a pump. The lugs look like those of a 3 Rensho (pronounced San Rensho). Certainly not a color I recognize.
3rensho lugs are beautiful - in fact I'd put them up against all but the finest custom frame makers in many cases (IMHO). This is one of those finest of custom frame makers; these lugs are in another league.

3resnho was putting out between 900-1200 frames per year (with a 5 man shop or so..) there's simply no way they would have the amount of time required to produce lug work like this.
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Old 05-17-21, 06:52 PM
  #79  
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OP: Entirely separate from the frame craftsmanship (I also noticed the lug thickness thinning at the borders, stunning):
- Half step plus granny chainrings
- 36 hole 3X spoke lacing
- I believe also double socketed rims (double wall, with a steel cup tying inner and outer walls together, riveted to the inner wall, drastically improving fatigue strength of the rim); heavier but durable.
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Old 05-17-21, 09:20 PM
  #80  
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The posting is gone.
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Old 05-19-21, 03:09 AM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by gravelinmygears View Post
The posting is gone.
Sorry to hear that, I take it you didn't get it?
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Old 05-19-21, 08:09 PM
  #82  
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Sold? or the seller decided to revise the ad with a much higher asking price?
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Old 05-19-21, 08:56 PM
  #83  
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Remains to be seen, or not.
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Old 05-19-21, 10:02 PM
  #84  
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Peter Johnson et al

On first glance, Peter Johnson came to mind, especially seeing that the bike was on San Francisco CL, .

The frame is sort of nondescript in the sense that it's an extremely well finished frame but nothing stands out to point to a particular builder, especially in the SF Bay Area...

There was a lot of "cross pollination" between Peter Johnson and Tom Ritchey that went all the way back to their high school days.

The color isn't something that I would expect from Peter, but whomever built the frame, it was probably the owner's choice.

Here's a link with some photos of Peter's work.

https://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/Peter_Johnson.htm

Scroll down to the light blue bike and compare the lugs with the SF CL bike.

Compare with Tom Ritchey's work:

Tom Ritchey, main

Peter didn't build anywhere near as many frames as Ritchey but they have more "panache"

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Old 05-19-21, 11:03 PM
  #85  
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3 Rensho Lugs

Originally Posted by bicyforev View Post
The lugs look like those of a 3 Rensho (pronounced San Rensho).
Originally Posted by belacqua View Post
wow it took me thirteen years on this forum to learn this
Originally Posted by tendency View Post
3rensho lugs are beautiful - in fact I'd put them up against all but the finest custom frame makers in many cases (IMHO). This is one of those finest of custom frame makers; these lugs are in another league.

3resnho was putting out between 900-1200 frames per year (with a 5 man shop or so..) there's simply no way they would have the amount of time required to produce lug work like this.
3Rensho, main

By the late 1970's, 3 Rensho was using investment cast lugs. These required a lot less hand filling plus provided a much closer fit with the tubing.



BTW, here's a sketch that shows what they used for lugs and tubing on their "standard" frames in 1979. Tubing was Ishiwata 019 main tubes with 022 forks and stays, Tange cast lugs and Suntour dropouts:




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Old 05-19-21, 11:47 PM
  #86  
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FWIW, I never heard back from the seller. I would have loved to have added this bike to the collection, too.
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Old 05-21-21, 05:47 AM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by verktyg View Post
3Rensho, main

By the late 1970's, 3 Rensho was using investment cast lugs. These required a lot less hand filling plus provided a much closer fit with the tubing.



BTW, here's a sketch that shows what they used for lugs and tubing on their "standard" frames in 1979. Tubing was Ishiwata 019 main tubes with 022 forks and stays, Tange cast lugs and Suntour dropouts:




verktyg
Little thread hijack here .. very cool drawing of the frame and lugs that were used on early stock frames. Where'd you come across this? 3rensho used a wide variety of lugs from the research I've done. Later, by the early to mid 80s or so, many of his bikes were using Yoshi's own investment cast lugs that he created. It does clearly appear though (and certainly backed up by your drawing) that a certain percentage of their frames were using 'stock' Tange lugging.

On a side note, the '83 specialized Allez that I have which was built by 3rensho looks to be built using their own lugs. They are similar to the Tange ones from their early 80s catalog but there are noticeable differences in the design and workmanship.

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Old 05-21-21, 05:17 PM
  #88  
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3Rensho

Originally Posted by tendency View Post
.. very cool drawing of the frame and lugs that were used on early stock frames. Where'd you come across this?

3rensho used a wide variety of lugs from the research I've done. Later, by the early to mid 80s or so, many of his bikes were using Yoshi's own investment cast lugs that he created. It does clearly appear though (and certainly backed up by your drawing) that a certain percentage of their frames were using 'stock' Tange lugging.
I met with Shin and Yoshi Konno plus another member of their company - CYCLONE Limited - at the 1979 New York International Bicycle Show.

It was their first visit to the US and they were looking for an importer. Their booth was across from ours and I got involved with them in part because I spoke Japanese and helped them with translations.

They left me with the three frames that they brought with them for the show. They were spectacular builds but they were 50cm-52cm frames plus 2 of them were track bikes so it was hard to develop much interest in an unknown small Japanese producer with the likes of Centurion, Nishiki, Fuji and others already successfully in the US market.

Additionally the prices at time were 30%+ higher than the prevailing US market and shipping plus import costs would have pushed them up another 10%-15%...

Sadly I left the bike industry later that year and my efforts died on the vine...





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Old 05-21-21, 07:07 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by verktyg View Post
I met with Shin and Yoshi Konno plus another member of their company - CYCLONE Limited - at the 1979 New York International Bicycle Show.

It was their first visit to the US and they were looking for an importer. Their booth was across from ours and I got involved with them in part because I spoke Japanese and helped them with translations.

They left me with the three frames that they brought with them for the show. They were spectacular builds but they were 50cm-52cm frames plus 2 of them were track bikes so it was hard to develop much interest in an unknown small Japanese producer with the likes of Centurion, Nishiki, Fuji and others already successfully in the US market.

Additionally the prices at time were 30%+ higher than the prevailing US market and shipping plus import costs would have pushed them up another 10%-15%...

Sadly I left the bike industry later that year and my efforts died on the vine...

verktyg
Wow great story! I've spoken a bit to Andy Muzi over at Yellow Jersey bicycles here in Wisconsin who, as you probably know, ended up being the 3rensho importer for the states. Good to always learn more thanks again!
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Old 05-21-21, 07:40 PM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by verktyg View Post
Their booth was across from ours and I got involved with them in part because I spoke Japanese and helped them with translations.

verktyg
Whatís the story behind that? Spend time in Japan? Military? College? I studied it for a few years and spent some time in Nagoya.
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Old 05-22-21, 08:48 AM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by verktyg View Post
I met with Shin and Yoshi Konno plus another member of their company - CYCLONE Limited - at the 1979 New York International Bicycle Show.

It was their first visit to the US and they were looking for an importer. Their booth was across from ours and I got involved with them in part because I spoke Japanese and helped them with translations.

They left me with the three frames that they brought with them for the show. They were spectacular builds but they were 50cm-52cm frames plus 2 of them were track bikes so it was hard to develop much interest in an unknown small Japanese producer with the likes of Centurion, Nishiki, Fuji and others already successfully in the US market.

Additionally the prices at time were 30%+ higher than the prevailing US market and shipping plus import costs would have pushed them up another 10%-15%...

Sadly I left the bike industry later that year and my efforts died on the vine...





verktyg
"...study with your kind smile, which I still remember quite vividly."

Maybe some of the phrasing comes from a translation, but I do enjoy the more elegant communication. Very different from the "u tk $50?" I sometimes get now.
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Old 06-26-21, 07:10 PM
  #92  
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I bought the bike

I asked Peter Johnson if he built the bike and he said no. He thinks that itís a Tom Richey maybe from the 80s. He took one look at the seat cluster and said it had to be Tom. Others have said Otis Guy.







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Old 06-26-21, 07:33 PM
  #93  
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Pull the fork - perhaps there is some sort of identification information on the steerer tube.

DD
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Old 06-26-21, 07:35 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by Drillium Dude View Post
Pull the fork - perhaps there is some sort of identification information on the steerer tube.

DD
I thought of that. Thereís nothing on the tube.
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Old 06-26-21, 08:03 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by gravelinmygears View Post
I thought of that. Thereís nothing on the tube.
Pix are great, but for once I'd rather hear "the rest of the story!"
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Old 06-26-21, 08:07 PM
  #96  
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Since you got one of the best of the best (even though we don't know yet who built it), it will be all down hill if you want to continue looking for more classic frames . And you already have a custom built to you so there isn't going to be improvement there. This is when someone in your position starts to think maybe a new gravel or randonneuring bike?
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Old 06-26-21, 08:12 PM
  #97  
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I think if Peter Johnson says it "has to be Tom" he's one to know! Glad to see that it finally went to you gravelinmygears after all that drama and uncertainty! I'm sure yours is a happy resting place for this bike, Cheers and enjoy it!
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Old 06-26-21, 08:46 PM
  #98  
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Golden ticket

To make a veeeeery long story short, the seller finally replied to my email and agreed to walk it down to a shop for payment and shipping.

Iím disappointed that itís not a Peter Johnson. I liked that idea. Iíll keep exploring to see if there are any more clues. I tried to post it on the CR list but it didnít work. Unapproved maybe?

It is a beautiful frame and the close triple is interesting! Thereís lots to explore.
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Old 06-26-21, 08:48 PM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by Doug Fattic View Post
Since you got one of the best of the best (even though we don't know yet who built it), it will be all down hill if you want to continue looking for more classic frames . And you already have a custom built to you so there isn't going to be improvement there. This is when someone in your position starts to think maybe a new gravel or randonneuring bike?
Only bike left on my list is a California Masi.

Thatís kind of foolish to say though. Iíd really like a Peter Johnson. And a rainbow traut. And a nice Japanese builder bike. I do try to get rid of bikes before I get new ones tho.

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Old 06-26-21, 09:05 PM
  #100  
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You can contact Otis Guy through the museum if you care to...
https://mmbhof.org/contact-us/
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