bicyforev

The peg is on the head tube is for a pump. The lugs look like those of a 3 Rensho (pronounced San Rensho). Certainly not a color I recognize.

belacqua

wow it took me thirteen years on this forum to learn this

tendency

3rensho lugs are beautiful - in fact I'd put them up against all but the finest custom frame makers in many cases (IMHO). This is one of those finest of custom frame makers; these lugs are in another league.

3resnho was putting out between 900-1200 frames per year (with a 5 man shop or so..) there's simply no way they would have the amount of time required to produce lug work like this.

Duragrouch

OP: Entirely separate from the frame craftsmanship (I also noticed the lug thickness thinning at the borders, stunning):
- Half step plus granny chainrings
- 36 hole 3X spoke lacing
- I believe also double socketed rims (double wall, with a steel cup tying inner and outer walls together, riveted to the inner wall, drastically improving fatigue strength of the rim); heavier but durable.

gravelinmygears 

The posting is gone.

mech986 

Sorry to hear that, I take it you didn't get it?

unworthy1

Sold? or the seller decided to revise the ad with a much higher asking price?

merziac

Remains to be seen, or not.

verktyg 

On first glance, Peter Johnson came to mind, especially seeing that the bike was on San Francisco CL, .

The frame is sort of nondescript in the sense that it's an extremely well finished frame but nothing stands out to point to a particular builder, especially in the SF Bay Area...

There was a lot of "cross pollination" between Peter Johnson and Tom Ritchey that went all the way back to their high school days.

The color isn't something that I would expect from Peter, but whomever built the frame, it was probably the owner's choice.

Here's a link with some photos of Peter's work.

https://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/Peter_Johnson.htm

Scroll down to the light blue bike and compare the lugs with the SF CL bike.

Compare with Tom Ritchey's work:

Tom Ritchey, main

Peter didn't build anywhere near as many frames as Ritchey but they have more "panache"

verktyg

verktyg 

3Rensho, main

By the late 1970's, 3 Rensho was using investment cast lugs. These required a lot less hand filling plus provided a much closer fit with the tubing.



BTW, here's a sketch that shows what they used for lugs and tubing on their "standard" frames in 1979. Tubing was Ishiwata 019 main tubes with 022 forks and stays, Tange cast lugs and Suntour dropouts:




verktyg

gaucho777 

FWIW, I never heard back from the seller. I would have loved to have added this bike to the collection, too.

tendency

Little thread hijack here .. very cool drawing of the frame and lugs that were used on early stock frames. Where'd you come across this? 3rensho used a wide variety of lugs from the research I've done. Later, by the early to mid 80s or so, many of his bikes were using Yoshi's own investment cast lugs that he created. It does clearly appear though (and certainly backed up by your drawing) that a certain percentage of their frames were using 'stock' Tange lugging.

On a side note, the '83 specialized Allez that I have which was built by 3rensho looks to be built using their own lugs. They are similar to the Tange ones from their early 80s catalog but there are noticeable differences in the design and workmanship.

verktyg 

I met with Shin and Yoshi Konno plus another member of their company - CYCLONE Limited - at the 1979 New York International Bicycle Show.

It was their first visit to the US and they were looking for an importer. Their booth was across from ours and I got involved with them in part because I spoke Japanese and helped them with translations.

They left me with the three frames that they brought with them for the show. They were spectacular builds but they were 50cm-52cm frames plus 2 of them were track bikes so it was hard to develop much interest in an unknown small Japanese producer with the likes of Centurion, Nishiki, Fuji and others already successfully in the US market.

Additionally the prices at time were 30%+ higher than the prevailing US market and shipping plus import costs would have pushed them up another 10%-15%...

Sadly I left the bike industry later that year and my efforts died on the vine...





verktyg

tendency

Wow great story! I've spoken a bit to Andy Muzi over at Yellow Jersey bicycles here in Wisconsin who, as you probably know, ended up being the 3rensho importer for the states. Good to always learn more thanks again!

polymorphself 

What’s the story behind that? Spend time in Japan? Military? College? I studied it for a few years and spent some time in Nagoya.

Shrevvy 

"...study with your kind smile, which I still remember quite vividly."

Maybe some of the phrasing comes from a translation, but I do enjoy the more elegant communication. Very different from the "u tk $50?" I sometimes get now.

gravelinmygears 

I asked Peter Johnson if he built the bike and he said no. He thinks that it’s a Tom Richey maybe from the 80s. He took one look at the seat cluster and said it had to be Tom. Others have said Otis Guy.

Drillium Dude 

Pull the fork - perhaps there is some sort of identification information on the steerer tube.

DD

gravelinmygears 

I thought of that. There’s nothing on the tube.

gugie 

Pix are great, but for once I'd rather hear "the rest of the story!"

Doug Fattic 

Since you got one of the best of the best (even though we don't know yet who built it), it will be all down hill if you want to continue looking for more classic frames . And you already have a custom built to you so there isn't going to be improvement there. This is when someone in your position starts to think maybe a new gravel or randonneuring bike?

unworthy1

I think if Peter Johnson says it "has to be Tom" he's one to know! Glad to see that it finally went to you gravelinmygears after all that drama and uncertainty! I'm sure yours is a happy resting place for this bike, Cheers and enjoy it!

gravelinmygears 

To make a veeeeery long story short, the seller finally replied to my email and agreed to walk it down to a shop for payment and shipping.

I’m disappointed that it’s not a Peter Johnson. I liked that idea. I’ll keep exploring to see if there are any more clues. I tried to post it on the CR list but it didn’t work. Unapproved maybe?

It is a beautiful frame and the close triple is interesting! There’s lots to explore.

gravelinmygears 

Only bike left on my list is a California Masi.

That’s kind of foolish to say though. I’d really like a Peter Johnson. And a rainbow traut. And a nice Japanese builder bike. I do try to get rid of bikes before I get new ones tho.

curbtender

You can contact Otis Guy through the museum if you care to...
https://mmbhof.org/contact-us/