A stunning mystery bike on San Fran CL
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05-17-21, 03:06 PM
#77
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05-17-21, 05:24 PM
#78
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3resnho was putting out between 900-1200 frames per year (with a 5 man shop or so..) there's simply no way they would have the amount of time required to produce lug work like this.
05-17-21, 06:52 PM
#79
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OP: Entirely separate from the frame craftsmanship (I also noticed the lug thickness thinning at the borders, stunning):
- Half step plus granny chainrings
- 36 hole 3X spoke lacing
- I believe also double socketed rims (double wall, with a steel cup tying inner and outer walls together, riveted to the inner wall, drastically improving fatigue strength of the rim); heavier but durable.
- Half step plus granny chainrings
- 36 hole 3X spoke lacing
- I believe also double socketed rims (double wall, with a steel cup tying inner and outer walls together, riveted to the inner wall, drastically improving fatigue strength of the rim); heavier but durable.
05-17-21, 09:20 PM
#80
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The posting is gone.
05-19-21, 08:56 PM
#83
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Remains to be seen, or not. 
05-19-21, 10:02 PM
#84
verktyg
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Peter Johnson et al
On first glance, Peter Johnson came to mind, especially seeing that the bike was on San Francisco CL, .
The frame is sort of nondescript in the sense that it's an extremely well finished frame but nothing stands out to point to a particular builder, especially in the SF Bay Area...
There was a lot of "cross pollination" between Peter Johnson and Tom Ritchey that went all the way back to their high school days.
The color isn't something that I would expect from Peter, but whomever built the frame, it was probably the owner's choice.
Here's a link with some photos of Peter's work.
https://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/Peter_Johnson.htm
Scroll down to the light blue bike and compare the lugs with the SF CL bike.
Compare with Tom Ritchey's work:
Tom Ritchey, main
Peter didn't build anywhere near as many frames as Ritchey but they have more "panache"
verktyg
The frame is sort of nondescript in the sense that it's an extremely well finished frame but nothing stands out to point to a particular builder, especially in the SF Bay Area...
There was a lot of "cross pollination" between Peter Johnson and Tom Ritchey that went all the way back to their high school days.
The color isn't something that I would expect from Peter, but whomever built the frame, it was probably the owner's choice.
Here's a link with some photos of Peter's work.
https://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/Peter_Johnson.htm
Scroll down to the light blue bike and compare the lugs with the SF CL bike.
Compare with Tom Ritchey's work:
Tom Ritchey, main
Peter didn't build anywhere near as many frames as Ritchey but they have more "panache"
verktyg
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Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
Chas. ;-)
Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
Chas. ;-)
Last edited by verktyg; 05-19-21 at 11:24 PM.
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05-19-21, 11:03 PM
#85
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3 Rensho Lugs
3rensho lugs are beautiful - in fact I'd put them up against all but the finest custom frame makers in many cases (IMHO). This is one of those finest of custom frame makers; these lugs are in another league.
3resnho was putting out between 900-1200 frames per year (with a 5 man shop or so..) there's simply no way they would have the amount of time required to produce lug work like this.
3resnho was putting out between 900-1200 frames per year (with a 5 man shop or so..) there's simply no way they would have the amount of time required to produce lug work like this.
By the late 1970's, 3 Rensho was using investment cast lugs. These required a lot less hand filling plus provided a much closer fit with the tubing.
BTW, here's a sketch that shows what they used for lugs and tubing on their "standard" frames in 1979. Tubing was Ishiwata 019 main tubes with 022 forks and stays, Tange cast lugs and Suntour dropouts:
verktyg
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Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
Chas. ;-)
Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
Chas. ;-)
Last edited by verktyg; 05-19-21 at 11:51 PM.
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05-19-21, 11:47 PM
#86
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FWIW, I never heard back from the seller. I would have loved to have added this bike to the collection, too.
05-21-21, 05:47 AM
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3Rensho, main
By the late 1970's, 3 Rensho was using investment cast lugs. These required a lot less hand filling plus provided a much closer fit with the tubing.
BTW, here's a sketch that shows what they used for lugs and tubing on their "standard" frames in 1979. Tubing was Ishiwata 019 main tubes with 022 forks and stays, Tange cast lugs and Suntour dropouts:
verktyg
By the late 1970's, 3 Rensho was using investment cast lugs. These required a lot less hand filling plus provided a much closer fit with the tubing.
BTW, here's a sketch that shows what they used for lugs and tubing on their "standard" frames in 1979. Tubing was Ishiwata 019 main tubes with 022 forks and stays, Tange cast lugs and Suntour dropouts:
verktyg
.. very cool drawing of the frame and lugs that were used on early stock frames. Where'd you come across this? 3rensho used a wide variety of lugs from the research I've done. Later, by the early to mid 80s or so, many of his bikes were using Yoshi's own investment cast lugs that he created. It does clearly appear though (and certainly backed up by your drawing) that a certain percentage of their frames were using 'stock' Tange lugging.On a side note, the '83 specialized Allez that I have which was built by 3rensho looks to be built using their own lugs. They are similar to the Tange ones from their early 80s catalog but there are noticeable differences in the design and workmanship.
Last edited by tendency; 05-21-21 at 05:52 AM.
05-21-21, 05:17 PM
#88
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3Rensho
.. very cool drawing of the frame and lugs that were used on early stock frames. Where'd you come across this?
3rensho used a wide variety of lugs from the research I've done. Later, by the early to mid 80s or so, many of his bikes were using Yoshi's own investment cast lugs that he created. It does clearly appear though (and certainly backed up by your drawing) that a certain percentage of their frames were using 'stock' Tange lugging.
3rensho used a wide variety of lugs from the research I've done. Later, by the early to mid 80s or so, many of his bikes were using Yoshi's own investment cast lugs that he created. It does clearly appear though (and certainly backed up by your drawing) that a certain percentage of their frames were using 'stock' Tange lugging.
It was their first visit to the US and they were looking for an importer. Their booth was across from ours and I got involved with them in part because I spoke Japanese and helped them with translations.
They left me with the three frames that they brought with them for the show. They were spectacular builds but they were 50cm-52cm frames plus 2 of them were track bikes so it was hard to develop much interest in an unknown small Japanese producer with the likes of Centurion, Nishiki, Fuji and others already successfully in the US market.
Additionally the prices at time were 30%+ higher than the prevailing US market and shipping plus import costs would have pushed them up another 10%-15%...
Sadly I left the bike industry later that year and my efforts died on the vine...
verktyg
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Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
Chas. ;-)
Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
Chas. ;-)
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05-21-21, 07:07 PM
#89
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I met with Shin and Yoshi Konno plus another member of their company - CYCLONE Limited - at the 1979 New York International Bicycle Show.
It was their first visit to the US and they were looking for an importer. Their booth was across from ours and I got involved with them in part because I spoke Japanese and helped them with translations.
They left me with the three frames that they brought with them for the show. They were spectacular builds but they were 50cm-52cm frames plus 2 of them were track bikes so it was hard to develop much interest in an unknown small Japanese producer with the likes of Centurion, Nishiki, Fuji and others already successfully in the US market.
Additionally the prices at time were 30%+ higher than the prevailing US market and shipping plus import costs would have pushed them up another 10%-15%...
Sadly I left the bike industry later that year and my efforts died on the vine...
verktyg
It was their first visit to the US and they were looking for an importer. Their booth was across from ours and I got involved with them in part because I spoke Japanese and helped them with translations.
They left me with the three frames that they brought with them for the show. They were spectacular builds but they were 50cm-52cm frames plus 2 of them were track bikes so it was hard to develop much interest in an unknown small Japanese producer with the likes of Centurion, Nishiki, Fuji and others already successfully in the US market.
Additionally the prices at time were 30%+ higher than the prevailing US market and shipping plus import costs would have pushed them up another 10%-15%...
Sadly I left the bike industry later that year and my efforts died on the vine...
verktyg
05-22-21, 08:48 AM
#91
Senior Member
I met with Shin and Yoshi Konno plus another member of their company - CYCLONE Limited - at the 1979 New York International Bicycle Show.
It was their first visit to the US and they were looking for an importer. Their booth was across from ours and I got involved with them in part because I spoke Japanese and helped them with translations.
They left me with the three frames that they brought with them for the show. They were spectacular builds but they were 50cm-52cm frames plus 2 of them were track bikes so it was hard to develop much interest in an unknown small Japanese producer with the likes of Centurion, Nishiki, Fuji and others already successfully in the US market.
Additionally the prices at time were 30%+ higher than the prevailing US market and shipping plus import costs would have pushed them up another 10%-15%...
Sadly I left the bike industry later that year and my efforts died on the vine...
verktyg
It was their first visit to the US and they were looking for an importer. Their booth was across from ours and I got involved with them in part because I spoke Japanese and helped them with translations.
They left me with the three frames that they brought with them for the show. They were spectacular builds but they were 50cm-52cm frames plus 2 of them were track bikes so it was hard to develop much interest in an unknown small Japanese producer with the likes of Centurion, Nishiki, Fuji and others already successfully in the US market.
Additionally the prices at time were 30%+ higher than the prevailing US market and shipping plus import costs would have pushed them up another 10%-15%...
Sadly I left the bike industry later that year and my efforts died on the vine...
verktyg
Maybe some of the phrasing comes from a translation, but I do enjoy the more elegant communication. Very different from the "u tk $50?" I sometimes get now.
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06-26-21, 07:10 PM
#92
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I bought the bike
I asked Peter Johnson if he built the bike and he said no. He thinks that it’s a Tom Richey maybe from the 80s. He took one look at the seat cluster and said it had to be Tom. Others have said Otis Guy.
06-26-21, 07:33 PM
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Pull the fork - perhaps there is some sort of identification information on the steerer tube.
DD
DD
06-26-21, 07:35 PM
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06-26-21, 08:03 PM
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Pix are great, but for once I'd rather hear "the rest of the story!"
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If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
06-26-21, 08:07 PM
#96
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Since you got one of the best of the best (even though we don't know yet who built it), it will be all down hill if you want to continue looking for more classic frames . And you already have a custom built to you so there isn't going to be improvement there. This is when someone in your position starts to think maybe a new gravel or randonneuring bike?
. And you already have a custom built to you so there isn't going to be improvement there. This is when someone in your position starts to think maybe a new gravel or randonneuring bike?
06-26-21, 08:12 PM
#97
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I think if Peter Johnson says it "has to be Tom" he's one to know! Glad to see that it finally went to you gravelinmygears after all that drama and uncertainty! I'm sure yours is a happy resting place for this bike, Cheers and enjoy it! 
06-26-21, 08:46 PM
#98
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Golden ticket
To make a veeeeery long story short, the seller finally replied to my email and agreed to walk it down to a shop for payment and shipping.
I’m disappointed that it’s not a Peter Johnson. I liked that idea. I’ll keep exploring to see if there are any more clues. I tried to post it on the CR list but it didn’t work. Unapproved maybe?
It is a beautiful frame and the close triple is interesting! There’s lots to explore.
I’m disappointed that it’s not a Peter Johnson. I liked that idea. I’ll keep exploring to see if there are any more clues. I tried to post it on the CR list but it didn’t work. Unapproved maybe?
It is a beautiful frame and the close triple is interesting! There’s lots to explore.
06-26-21, 08:48 PM
#99
Full Member
Since you got one of the best of the best (even though we don't know yet who built it), it will be all down hill if you want to continue looking for more classic frames . And you already have a custom built to you so there isn't going to be improvement there. This is when someone in your position starts to think maybe a new gravel or randonneuring bike?
. And you already have a custom built to you so there isn't going to be improvement there. This is when someone in your position starts to think maybe a new gravel or randonneuring bike?That’s kind of foolish to say though. I’d really like a Peter Johnson. And a rainbow traut. And a nice Japanese builder bike. I do try to get rid of bikes before I get new ones tho.
Last edited by gravelinmygears; 06-26-21 at 09:28 PM.
06-26-21, 09:05 PM
#100
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You can contact Otis Guy through the museum if you care to...
https://mmbhof.org/contact-us/
https://mmbhof.org/contact-us/
