Arete
The person of Arete is of the highest effectiveness; they use all their faculties—strength, bravery, and wit—to achieve real results.
The Ancient Greeks applied the term to anything: for example, the excellence of a chimney, the excellence of a bull for breeding, and the excellence of a man. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arete Brian Chapman is really awe inspiring. |
Originally Posted by Charles Wahl
(Post 22056790)
Not to take anything away from Brian Chapman, but if you want to know how the box lining is done, freehand, watch the Taylor Brothers video, starting at about 12:01 (well, the whole thing is well worth a watch):
Makes me want a Jack Taylor. Very much... -Kurt |
hmmmpff Arete:) My favorite is wabi-sabi / "beauty in imperfection". I use the expression allll ttthhhe tttiimme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi
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Originally Posted by Charles Wahl
(Post 22057583)
Too perfect lug lining (like too perfect frame building and finishing) is unsettling to me. I much prefer to see the artifacts of "craft" and a straightforward economy of means and time spent in a "worthwhile" fashion. I know that many feel otherwise, but there it is. I have the same feeling about the whole "holy grail" thing.
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Originally Posted by Charles Wahl
(Post 22056790)
Not to take anything away from Brian Chapman, but if you want to know how the box lining is done, freehand, watch the Taylor Brothers video, starting at about 12:01 (well, the whole thing is well worth a watch): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALNsQpCL8LY
Favorite quotation:"The racing lads don't go in for it, y'know." Truth be told, @sced is right: it's not that difficult to do lug lining with a fine-tipped DecoColor pen, as long as the shore is smooth enough. The hard stuff is the "in the open" work. |
Originally Posted by fender1
(Post 22058040)
So your "Holy Grail is imperfection? ;)
Getting back to lug and box lining, and other pinstriping: I do actually like to see a bit of "wiggle" or "release blobs" at crossings of the terminations, as evidence that it was done by hand. It's sort of like seeing traces of the sculptor's toothed chisel when examining a statue; evidence that we were here, and did this. |
Originally Posted by randyjawa
(Post 22056520)
Just did a search for Fluid writer pen and wow. Lots to see and not all that pricey on Amazon. Got a gift certificate for Amazon. Wonder if they work good for someone with poor eyesight and shaky hands:-)
$22.00 US... https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7b4a855780.jpg |
Originally Posted by Charles Wahl
(Post 22057583)
Too perfect lug lining (like too perfect frame building and finishing) is unsettling to me. I much prefer to see the artifacts of "craft" and a straightforward economy of means and time spent in a "worthwhile" fashion. I know that many feel otherwise, but there it is. I have the same feeling about the whole "holy grail" thing.
I was taught how to do double box lining when I was learning framebuilding at Ellis Briggs in Yorkshire. Rod (one of the painters) came from the Ellis side of the business. What he did was to steady his hand with one of his fingers of his brush hand as he made the long stripe. That keep the brush stroke consistent. After he made the cross stripes to close in the box, he wiped the excess lengths beyond the intersection with a dampened cloth. This provides acceptable but not perfect results. Charles would approve. When I painted the double box lining on by daughter's frame (two colors), I masked with fine line tape (a Scotch product). I could use a section of aluminum angle I bought at the hardware store for assistance in keeping the lines (and tape) straight. Here is a picture of the 650c (not to be confused with 650b) frame I made and painted for her. https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...322a76902.jpeg |
Thanks Doug Fattic . Great tips for box lining. Not a bad looking bike either. I like the box lining on your daughters bike with the newer style frame and components. You used 590 wheels? I don't want to cause a turn in this thread, however that is an interesting choice. One that I like, since I also chose that size wheel for my wife's Panasonic that originally came with 27" wheels. Being a custom frame maker makes this fit better than my ham fisted preplace, relace and I got more space solution. I could not change the frame geometry to better fit her.
Beautiful bike. |
Originally Posted by Doug Fattic
(Post 22058396)
You belong in the not-Doug-Fattic-customer category.
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Originally Posted by Velo Mule
(Post 22058432)
Thanks Doug Fattic . Great tips for box lining. Not a bad looking bike either. I like the box lining on your daughters bike with the newer style frame and components. You used 590 wheels? I don't want to cause a turn in this thread, however that is an interesting choice. One that I like, since I also chose that size wheel for my wife's Panasonic that originally came with 27" wheels. Being a custom frame maker makes this fit better than my ham fisted preplace, relace and I got more space solution. I could not change the frame geometry to better fit her. Beautiful bike.
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Originally Posted by Doug Fattic
(Post 22058954)
I used 650C wheels that have an ERD of 571. This smaller wheel diameter solves the toe clearance problem. And makes a smaller frame look more proportional because the head tube lugs aren't crammed together. It is often not that obvious 650C wheels are a bit smaller than 700C wheels just glancing at the bike.
This 650C track bike... https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...335a0d1f76.jpg ...is this size when put next to something with 700C's. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a5c04996b3.jpg -Kurt |
Originally Posted by Charles Wahl
(Post 22058441)
I'm not sure how to take that. I really appreciate your contributions to this forum, and were I to "commission" a bike frame, I'd probably want to do it where my roots are (SE MI). Routinely seen hereabouts wearing one of my 4 Tigers caps (fandom begun as a toddler is durable). So I hope that I wouldn't be disqualified on account of musings here.
However my primary job is teaching framebuilding classes. I occasionally get time to paint a few frames and I also spend a lot of time working on our charity bicycle project in Ukraine. That leaves almost no time left over to make custom frames. There has been a huge increase in requests to learn framebuilding after Covid. Some of my students want to learn the craft so they can make more. In that case we focus on methods and techniques and practice. Some of them just want to have a hand in making a custom frame for themselves. For this latter group I often help out a bit with the hard parts. If you took my class you could decide yourself how well you wanted it to look :). |
Thanks again Doug Fattic . I got confused between 650a and 650c. I Like the use of the slightly smaller wheels. The proportions of the frame look great.
I have a Kemper Fluid Writer on order now. And a Beugler pinstripper is next. The angle aluminum is a good tip for keeping the line parallel to the tube. I've got the 3M tape already. I'll try box lining an inexpensive frame that has been my paint test frame. The lug lining has been done already, but the results that the lines are too fat. I used an ink tip from a drafting set. I've got another frame to try out the fluid writer on. I'll post pictures if they are not too embarrassing. |
I think I understand Charles, and I think I agree, at least at times. It's not that mediocrity is admirable. It's just nice to see slight imperfections on a work approaching perfection. It shows that a human build it, not a machine that has tolerances tighter than our eyes can perceive.
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Originally Posted by noglider
(Post 22059099)
I think I understand Charles, and I think I agree, at least at times. It's not that mediocrity is admirable. It's just nice to see slight imperfections on a work approaching perfection. It shows that a human build it, not a machine that has tolerances tighter than our eyes can perceive.
Unfiled lugs makes me think of what we see from Fuji and other Japanese and Taiwanese contract builders these days with investment cast lugs. Very nice, definitely better than what you'd see from the average bike boom-era frame, but underwhelming when you realize that such work can be mass-manufactured. -Kurt |
Originally Posted by cudak888
(Post 22059227)
Funny, I find that ridiculously perfect, filed lugs draw me in a lot more. There's no machine that can get such a result; the filing is what shows that a human built it!
Unfiled lugs makes me think of what we see from Fuji and other Japanese and Taiwanese contract builders these days with investment cast lugs. Very nice, definitely better than what you'd see from the average bike boom-era frame, but underwhelming when you realize that such work can be mass-manufactured. -Kurt I can understand and appreciate the Doug Fattic approach - perfection in function and appearance is the goal. I can also understand and appreciate the approach of some of the masters - the bike is primarily a tool and has to be built right, with appearances not ignored but definitely lower priority. I have an Eisentraut and a Ron Cooper, both made within roughly five years of each other. The inside of the Eisentraut's BB shell is pristine. The mitering looks exquisite in a part of the frame that no one will ever see except whoever installs or removes the bottom bracket. The Cooper, on the other hand, is definitely not pristine. Don't get me wrong, it is done right and is clearly structurally sound, but little if any extra effort went into making pretty a part of the frame that will never show. Different approaches and different ideas, both work just fine. And both look great all built up. Which is better or makes more sense? YMMV. |
Originally Posted by bikingshearer
(Post 22059573)
Which is better or makes more sense? YMMV.
-Kurt |
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Too 10 bike for sure, except one thing.....
Chapman's bikes seem incredible. The one getting the lug lining is exactly what I lust for.
Except one thing. Can we stop with the seat tube lights? I'm all for retro, and I think it looks great, but to put so much time into making that attachment, wiring it, etc., all to have a light obscured by the fender, especially for smaller frames. And the side or angled views from those approaching behind is no doubt compromised. I'd love to see a clever option, or just a lamp on the chain or seatstay, that's both elegant and functional and on par with these other stunning details. |
Originally Posted by uprightbent
(Post 22063455)
Chapman's bikes seem incredible. The one getting the lug lining is exactly what I lust for.
Except one thing. Can we stop with the seat tube lights? I'm all for retro, and I think it looks great, but to put so much time into making that attachment, wiring it, etc., all to have a light obscured by the fender, especially for smaller frames. And the side or angled views from those approaching behind is no doubt compromised. I'd love to see a clever option, or just a lamp on the chain or seatstay, that's both elegant and functional and on par with these other stunning details. https://live.staticflickr.com/1758/4...966487_z_d.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/1739/4...2fb762_z_d.jpg I'm guessing that the seat tube lights might be popular because they are currently in production. Steve in Peoria |
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