himespau 

I hope it doesn't come to this, but I have a question about determining the value of a bike (or parts) that can no longer be replaced with new.

Long story short (for what hopefully will not become legal reasons), my bike is currently nonfunctional and another person (or her autoowner's insurance company) will be legally 100% liable for making it right. Currently, I know the rear wheel is going to need to be rebuilt/replaced (rim/spokes completely trashed), but I don't know beyond that.

I have a ~1990 Concorde Aquila frame (with Nashabar carbon fork) that I built up with 10 speed triple Campagnolo parts (centaur, racing T, record, whatever I could find that would work) and hand built wheels (powertap hubs laced to pacenti sl23 rims).

The consumables and saddle are modern, but nothing else (rims, hubs, campy bits - well other than the record headset - frame, fork) is available anymore.

Given that I need a powermeter (I'm only going to be riding on Zwift online for the forseeable future after having to call my wife to tell her what had happened), I'm going to push to have any estimates involve having the rear wheel rebuilt rather than replaced if the hub is salvageable.

But other than that, how does one go about valuing this/trying to replace it? I have to take the bike to multiple shops to assess damage and get a repair estimate (given the time of year, it's going to take a while, I'm sure, especially since the fact that I'm going to 3 shops means they aren't guaranteed the job and thus it's low priority). It was a nice frame and each of the parts individually were nice at their time and I spent a lot of time and money (shh, don't tell the wife) putting them together an assembling it. The frame was the second from the top of Concorde's racing line at the time, but a 30 year old frame (not widely known or desired by anyone but me even with the PDM kit) isn't really equivalent to modern top of the line CF. At the same time, I'd probably say it's nicer than where most manufacturers put steel road bikes in their modern lineups (if they include them at all).

Like I said, this is mainly a thought experiment as I'm hoping it's just the wheel that needs rebuilding and I don't know. As it was the only working bike I had (a touring frame waiting to be built up) I had at the moment, sort of all my bike thought energy is focused on obsessing over it.

CliffordK

Interesting question. The value of the bike to you is likely greater than you could find a replacement on Craigslist or Ebay. And, obviously painting, restoration, etc, is all expensive if one was to pay shop rates.

Do you have a value in mind? $1K?

Is there significant personal injury involved requiring insurance?

I'd call up the insurance company and see if you can come up with an agreement without personal injury, perhaps $1K.

Or tell them that you wish to do the repairs. $1K with frame damage, $500 with only wheel damage.

Perhaps it may seem like high for a bike, but in reality, it is a real bargain for them.

If they are uncooperative, ask them what number your lawyer should call.

look566 rider

My personal experience with insurance payouts from the other parties is go to your favorite LBS, have them put together a replacement estimate for parts of, or entire bike, then present to their insurance company. They will more than likely pay what you request. Don't be afraid to have LBS write up at full value. Write up each component as an individual part for maximum value. Even if some parts are obsolete, write up equivalent of new parts.

Both times were due to cars crashing into me. Both times I was made whole with replacement bikes better than I had before. Both insurance companies were major players in ins. biz.

Of course buy your needed parts/bike from LBS that wrote up in first place.

Good luck!

bikemig 

I think the value is replacement since it lacks a value as a collectible. Do you need to replace or fix the frame? Or is the damage just the rear wheel? In either case, the value is what an equivalent new bike or equivalent new parts would cost.

So find out what a high end steel frame costs today (w/o fork assuming that is still good), what an equivalent rear wheel costs, and factor in shop labor. I'm assuming no parts are damaged. That way you are made whole.

himespau 

I don't know what is needed yet. It's just like, what happens if my RD needs a replacement? I hope not because, 6 weeks ago, I put on a carefully hoarded Centaur 10 speed Triple RD after the last one cracked after 10 years of use. Since I can't buy a new one of those (as they aren't made anymore), what do I do? Just say, this is how much it would cost to replace from eBay? If I had to buy new, I'd have to go to 11 speed and would lose triple and ultrashift ability and have to replace cranks, FD and shifters as well. Same with the powertap wheel since I can't buy powertap hubs anymore?

himespau 

I don't believe there is any personal injury and the driver wants to pay for it out of pocket if it's not "too expensive" because she doesn't want to take a hit on her insurance (or get kicked off it).

CliffordK

Do you have some photos pre accident and post accident?

himespau 

Not greatest picture and maybe 6 months old with older tires and the old RD. Don't have the bike on me at the moment because the bike shop is evaluating it. My wife took pictures at the site of the collision, but I don't have them on me. Like I said, I'm hoping it's just the rear wheel (rim totally destroyed - beyond a simple taco-ing - and 4+ spokes were torn out through the rim).

If the hub is fine, is asking for a quote to get new rim/hubs and labor for rebuilding the wheel fair?

SJX426 

look566 rider is a description of what I did. In Oregon, auto insurance, including PIP, covered everything and more.

cbrstar

Depends where you live. Some places a insurance company may only have to replace with "Like kind and quality". So they can see if there is a modern version of your bike that's similar. Or they can go on ebay and find a bike that's similar and offer a pay out. Where I live the Insurance company is allowed to do the cheaper of the two and it's up to you to fight them in court. Or they might try to fix it. Also if the bike has collector value they will say you needed to have it scheduled on your own insurance. You would make a claim under your own insurance and have the two companies fight it out after.

You will have to talk to the adjuster and see if you can come to a agreement.

CliffordK

Nice bike, and a tall frame. Hopefully the bike shop will come up with some ideas, and also has the tools to check alignment.

If you can make an argument for a reasonable valuation (without personal injury), they won't go to court.

There is absolutely no upside for the insurance company for a court case of < $5000. Winning in court is still losing, and they'll be hit with court fees, your attorney fees, their attorney fees, and time lost.

himespau 

himespau 

My hope (and the driver's) is that the bike shop will say that there's nothing needed other than a wheel rebuild and I can just present her with a number to get them to rebuild the wheel (and maybe replace the rear tire), she can pay the bike shop directly and we can be done without involving the insurance.

In the hope that that's all the problem is, I'm digging through my spare parts to try to build a new rear wheel so that I'll have something to ride if I get a functional bike back minus the rear wheel as it might take some time to get a shop to rebuild it.

Basically, if I had to get in a collision, mine was about as least bad as you could hope. I was stopped at a light, she was stopped maybe 5 yards behind me giving me plenty of room. Then, for some reason, she thought the light had changed when it hadn't and accelerated into me and I took a short ride on her hood. She hadn't had time/room to get going very fast.

It happened right outside a fire station, so I asked one of the firemen for the non-emergency number for the police and their on-duty EMT came out and chatted with us (didn't check me out and I didn't ask him to) while we were waiting (and he photocopied her insurance info for me). I got slightly jarred and have a bit of a bruise on my right flank where the nose of my saddle banged into me (I was standing with my left foot down), but low speed, no head involvement and I sit high enough that my bike went out from under me and my behind just sat down on her hood.

Definitely made me think of Pcad and a Zwift teammate mentioned how a driver hit and killed a national champion racer on Sunday a couple of miles away from where he was riding at the exact same time, and I'm going to be happy riding inside for a while. My wife will definitely be wanting me to stay on Zwift after having to get a phone call that started with, "hey ________, I'm ok, but I just got hit, so I'm not going to be home for a while."

merziac

Last one I had was pretty much a total, found all comparable parts on efbay, anything with a scratch got replaced, wind it up, find the best condition parts you can, many of mine were hard to find the first time around and were even more the second time.

This was in Oregon, hit and run, my insurance, they paid every penny I asked for pretty much overnight.

Take the frame to a frame builder, have them estimate a complete perfect repair with paint.

If she wants to cash out that's fine but "not too expensive" is not her call and it will be expensive.

I would also encourage you to file a claim, if you end up with an injury from this down the road you will have far less recourse, especially if you were not checked out thoroughly, any kinks, tweaks, aches, pains, especially new or aggravated should be listed and discussed and any that come up later after the fact need to be documented.

himespau 

Yeah, I go back and forth on filing a report. On the one hand, I just want this done quickly so I can get on with my life (and if it's not expensive, I don't want to disincentivize someone who actually stuck around). On the other hand, I totally get the value in documentation. The cop was actively discouraging filing a police report (we each have a year to file under local law) unless there's a dispute we can't resolve or the costs end up going into the thousands of dollars (he did tell her that it wasn't uncommon for road bikes to run 5 grand, so at least he knew that it wasn't just a toy I picked up at walmart). If it turns out the frame is out of alignment or cracked or something, I'll definitely file.

merziac

This also brings up why I ride with camera's and lights front and rear, GPS, helmet 24/7.

Even with all that I only got crappy video of the driver speeding away which could have helped if it was worse but really didn't for this time.

If you get hit and hurt bad you will need all the evidence and boxes checked that you can, insurance companies are ruthless and will bring an army of lawyers to pile drive you just for sport.

"Was he wearing a helmet" no, it wasn't required by law, "well he might not have been hurt as bad if he was" maybe so but he's not at fault here, he was legally standing still waiting for the light to change, "seems irresponsible to not wear a helmet, especially if it could have helped, did he have lights on for safety so people could see him better?" no they are not required either.

Boxes not checked are ammo for them to deflect or water down fault after the fact regardless of legal requirement or lack there of.

Oregon's accident reports have a box for lights being on when we have no requirement except for motorcycles, many commercial vehicles and long haul trucks have signage touting "lights on for safety" and while that may be true its really to cover their azz in a collision, "my lights were on, if they were paying attention they might have been able to avoid this since I couldn't see them very good without their lights on".

merziac

I get it, still encourage you to pay very close attention to your body. I had a couple little things before hand that got worse and seemed to trigger other bigger problems after 2 and 6 months and are still going on way worse than ever and before.

himespau 

Oh yeah, I'm watching it. I keep getting twinges in my glute from where the saddle nose ran into it (even though it's not visible bruising) when I rotate it too far, but that's going away. I have a history of lower back issues (repeatedly spraining my illial-sacral joint), so I'm being very paranoid about every age-related ache down there when I get up in the morning or after sitting too long at my computer. One more reminder about how I need to lose some more weight and should take up yoga or some other stretching discipline.

I actually thought about putting a camera on my bike on Saturday. I have a cheap 760p GoPro knockoff. I probably would have put it on the mount on the bottom of my computer (which wouldn't have captured anything in this crash) because I'm paranoid about my helmet losing effectiveness (changing how it'd slide on the ground and adding a point of pressure to crack it if hit) if I put it on a helmet mount even though that would have been more likely to capture what happened. I didn't end up mounting the camera because Tuesday (the day of the collision) was only the 4th time I've ridden outside all year. My computer says I've done a bit over 3000 km so far this year, but only 70 or so miles of that were outside. The rest was on my trainer on Zwift. Cameras are cheap enough now that I could get 2 and mount one forward and back on the bike (or look more carefully into how to safely helmet mount them).

merziac

Sounds like it may have captured the red light and the fact that you were stopped which could have helped a lot if it had been really bad, between it and GPS you can usually prove something that a driver is leaving out or not being truthful about. Every little bit can help when its bad and push comes to shove.

I was an early adopter of the Cycliq cameras as they have a light built in. They are spendy and some have had horrible luck with them but most of mine have been ok and work pretty good, it can be a challenge to stay on top of charging them and the new front one is even worse, maybe 2 days of riding between charges but it seems to work good so we'll see.

curbtender

In California, any injury accident needs to be reported to the DMV. If you go outside of this, you better get it all in writing incase you end up not liking the process. That brake bridge looks like it's compromised or did you remove it to release the wheel?

pcb 

tl;dr: Make any repair/replacement quotes quick and easy and fair to you, and make sure to give yourself a cushion.

If you have an insurance agent, likely worth speaking with them.

My approach would depend greatly on whether just a couple things need replacing, a bunch of stuff needs replacing, or you need framework. In general I don't think it's worth my time/effort, or my dealer's, to get into the weeds regarding individual vintage parts replacement. Unless you're needing to replace a rare $500 rear derailleur, if my vintage Campy Chorus rder needs replacing, I'm having the dealer quote me for a new/current one. Same with the other stuff. Replacement value with new equipment of similar spec level. If that spec level no longer exists, you go up one level. If that brand no longer exists, nearest equivalent from a quality brand still in production.

Looking at your photos, if you're lucky and only the rear wheel is manked, I'd ask my dealer for a quote for a new rear wheel with new PowerTap or whatever gizmo you got there. You can make the call whether to replace the wheel completely or rebuild later, but you were struck and your bike is inoperable and I wouldn't be asking the dealer to be pricing out spokes/rebuilding costs or trying to figure out how to get the same vintage replacement rim. Get a quote for a new wheel.

That's if we're talking a couple/few items. If a big chunk of your parts need replacing, and esp if there's any frame damage, I'd move directly to getting a quote for replacement value for a brand new complete bicycle at a fair equivalent spec level.

pcb 

Oh, and sorry for not saying this right off, very glad to hear you didn't get banged up!

himespau 

I didn't look closely at the brake bridge, but it isn't a straight piece normally. I think, after the wheel got bent the break swung freely. At least I hope so. If the brake bridge is broken, it's accident report and frame replacement time.

himespau 

I think you may be right. Since I don't know of any currently made wheels with powermeters, I might just try to get them to say how much an equivalent wheel would cost. The only powermeters besides wheel-based that would work with my bike are pedal-based and I'm not sure if asking for new pedals when mine aren't broken would fly, but that might be required to return functionality to what it was. In an ideal world, I'd get the money from the quote for the replacement parts and then maybe rebuild the wheel rather than buying a new one because I can't get a new one exactly the same. I just don't like building wheels, so that's why I was suggesting getting a quote to get the shop to do it for me. That may or may not be cheaper than a quote for a new wheel. I'm definitely not worried about getting the same vintage rim. A modern one of equivalent value is what I was expecting if I get it rebuilt.

Thanks

tricky 

Glad you are still ok!

My experience in Seattle when I was hit by an Uber making an illegal turn across across the 2nd ave bikeway was this:

• Driver tried to offer me an ointment for any aches and pains (no joke) and asked me not to do anything to him. He didn't seem like a terrible person, but I was pissed that he was trying to explain it away like the passenger made him take that turn and "it was his first day driving for Uber". I took pictures of my bike, the car, his insurance card, and a bystander gave me his number in case I needed a witness.
• His (Uber's maybe? Haven't ever figured that out) insurance company called me the next day, told me to get an estimate for bike repairs and send them any doctor bills
• Went to Zoom care and they looked me over.
• I took it to 1 shop (Free Range in Fremont). They gave their honest assessment of the repair cost:
  • New front wheel. They couldn't fully trust the front wheel since it took the brunt of the impact.
  • Charge for realigning the fork dropouts, which they offered to hold off on charging me for until I got the insurance payout, which was nice
• Insurance paid out everything I was asking for including the doc bills, no questions.

My thoughts on your situation:
-Go to a doc to get checked over. It's good you are listening to your body, but a second set of eyes could catch something your missing and could be an issue later on. Obviously add that on to the cost of the accident.
-Consider trying to get a new hub. That wheel took a major hit and the bearings could have been compromised.
-Make sure at least one of the shops you go to has experience in checking frame alignment. I wouldn't be surprised if your rear triangle is off a little bit now, in fact it looks a little crooked based on the angle of the hub, but could be the picture. If it is off, you should have a framebuilder give you an estimate for re-alignment on a frame table. If it's too far off, a frame replacement should be considered, but the framebuilder should be able to give you their recommendation.