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There's still something about 23c tires

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There's still something about 23c tires

Old 06-10-21, 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by krakhaus
I started out on a mountain bike with 1.25 slicks, and rode that for the first year. When I went to a road bike, which weren't cool back in 1995, I couldn't believe the amount of energy I was wasting on the fat tires.
1.25" isn't all that wide. If the road bike was dramatically faster, it was probably mostly due to factors other than the tire width. Such as posture, or factors other than width in the tire's construction.
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Old 06-10-21, 04:11 AM
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23mm tubulars, leather toe strap, frame pump and 32H rims for the win. Even on my modern bike.

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Old 06-10-21, 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K
I think all of you spent too much time riding 19mm tires.
My 2005 Mondonico came to me with 19 mm Wolber clinchers on Mavic Open Pro. I've ridden them in the neighbohood a few times and I again think they're fine. The bike is also great with 27 mm tubulars, Challenge Paris-Roubaix cottons. There isn't more room after that!
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Old 06-10-21, 05:46 AM
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The problem with >25mm tires for my favorite bikes is not only the fit in the frame, but the ability to remove the wheel. Even with the caliper release open, it can be a chore to get the rear tire past the pads, out and in.
I would rather run a good tire with the performance characteristics than a fatter tire. I am amazed at the supple ride of the Vittoria G+ tires in 23, tubular (De Rosa) and clincher (Pinarello)
That is my story and I am stick'n to it.

PS: for me it is like DT vs "Brifters." I resisted until the opportunity presented itself to try a set. I knew they might be "better" but I didn't' want to get out of my old time period space. I did it and now have a broader range of experiences available to me. Having the De Rosa with more modern parts allow me to say I have the better of both old and new. Same with cage&strap vs clipless.
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Old 06-10-21, 10:46 AM
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I haven't had a use for anything smaller than a 28 for years, but this spring I've found a personal need for them.

I'm a recovering fixed gear addict, which has ruined my left hip. After taking 1.5yrs off of riding any fixed due to my leg no longer staying in the socket, I bought 2 track bikes this spring that I knew I had to ride. I'm cautiously riding once a week or so and not having too much trouble. When I ride my tracklocross rig with a 32c rear tire, I start having that burning sooner. I think it boils down to the lighter rotating mass with the smaller tire makes the regular acceleration/deceleration less Plus if I do accidentally skip or skid, there's so much less tire contact patch.
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Old 06-10-21, 11:02 AM
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I don’t mind the ride. But I’ve fallen enough times with skinny tires when hitting tiny obstacles like driveway lips and pavement separations at just the wrong angle.

Even a 28 tire requires significantly less concentration to avoid these incidents. Since all my riding is on Seattle streets, it’s not worth it.
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Old 06-10-21, 12:56 PM
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First time I tried 23c's I thought "these are kind of big." And still felt dead even compared to the Futuras and Invulnerables I'd been riding (and those are NOT the most supple of sewups). 25c's were huge. Now I'm on 28c and 40-622
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Old 06-10-21, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by sincos
First time I tried 23c's I thought "these are kind of big." And still felt dead even compared to the Futuras and Invulnerables I'd been riding (and those are NOT the most supple of sewups). 25c's were huge. Now I'm on 28c and 40-622
I've never ridden on the Wolber Invulnerable, but their ads did make an impression on me.. mostly "what is it like when you put chain mail armor in a tire?".
Fortunately, I've scanned some of my old magazines and can share that ad...



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Old 06-10-21, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by krakhaus
That is truth
I read something about Cippolini always riding his stem at 130mm totally slammed, regardless of the bike he was riding because he couldn't be happy if it didn't look cool. I can relate.
For Mario stem length was also needed for another reason. Pam just wouldn't look as good on an eighty mm stem:

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Old 06-10-21, 02:09 PM
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I´ve never understood the current craze for bigger tyres. On my three road bikes I run 21(Vittoria Open Corsa on the Fondriest), 22 (Vittoria Open Triathlon on the Nissan), and 23 (Vittoria Rubino Pro on the Olmo). My grocery getter called "Uncle grandad" with fenders and flat bar, runs 23 Vittoria Rubino in the summer, and 25 Panaracers in the winter.
I detest the sluggish feeling big tyres give, and I´ve yet to see a big tyre (In my book thats 25 or anyting above) that can handle 10 bars. Are the skinny tyres harsh riding, Well sometimes a bit, but the bikes just feel so much more agile with them. If I wanted a mountain bike, I would have bought one. I wish 21 or even 19 tyres was more widely available.
When your´re old and fat like me, you need all the help you can get, and that includes skinny tyres with real air in them,
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Old 06-10-21, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Highmass
I detest the sluggish feeling big tyres give
I don’t know… the 30mm vittoria corsa G+ tubulars I have feel anything but sluggish. As fast as the open corsa 23s I have on another wheel set, and way more comfortable.
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Old 06-10-21, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Flatforkcrown
I don’t know… the 30mm vittoria corsa G+ tubulars I have feel anything but sluggish. As fast as the open corsa 23s I have on another wheel set, and way more comfortable.
Yeah. I've been doing an experiment with my various bikes, riding the same 25.5 mile route at the same time of day - and the last couple weeks with the same temps and wind conditions - and the fastest time by a significant chunk was on the bike with 28s. I don't ascribe the speed to the fatter tires, but they don't slow me down. BUT I wouldn't run them on my 1982 Lotus, because they'd look strange. There would be room between the stays, and the fork blades, though.
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Old 06-10-21, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by non-fixie
For Mario stem length was also needed for another reason. Pam just wouldn't look as good on an eighty mm stem:

I've never seen that. That's great.
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Old 06-10-21, 06:23 PM
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23 front
25-28 rear

the 23’s or typical 22 section tubulars just have better “turn in”
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Old 06-10-21, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by krakhaus
I've never seen that. That's great.
I ran across her in Malibu- Trancas Canyon Starbuck’s
was during the tattoo removal interval.
otherwise just a Malibu Mom taking a kid to Karate practice.
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Old 06-10-21, 08:03 PM
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Yeah, I came of age as a bike racer when 23c was the iron-clad rule.... and they felt like iron! Conti Gran Prix inflated to 120 psi--- fast and hard was the idea, and back then no one expected to feel comfortable on a road bike, ever. Suffering was the point--- and the tires delivered that.

I moved to Vermont and kept trying to ride my 23c racing bikes over rutted, washboarded, stony or sandy dirt roads.... or worse, pavement with frost heaves, expansion cracks, poor asphalt patch jobs.... it was like getting slowly beaten to death with tiny, tiny hammers! Pinch flats all day, no matter how high I pumped the pressure.

When I finally came out of my 1990's racer-hypnosis and realized I could shove 28c tires into most of my bikes--- or even (gasp) 30c or more--- it changed my life. The Vittoria G+ tubulars in 28c or 30c are light, supple, and feel nimble to ride, all while smoothing the tiny hammer blows into distant noise.... I live with razor's edge clearance between my tires and my frame, all for the sake of keeping my teeth in my head during long rides.

I have ridden wide tires which feel "numb" or squishy, and which turn steering response into a distant memory..... but a good Rene Herse, Soma Supple Vitesse, or even a Maxxis tire in a 38c or 42c feels pretty light and quick while letting me tank through all the broken pavement I can find.

These days I feel like the skinny-tire guy: most of the other riders I see out there are on gravel bikes or "all-road" bikes for which 38c is about the skinniest, and 42 or 50c is not uncommon. The fact that I ride rough gravel on 28c tubulars makes me seem like a lunatic to these guys on modern bikes...

It's all in the perspective: 28c seems huge to me, but looks tiny in light of the modern trend toward fat-tired road bikes.

There's no question that certain bikes from the 80's/90's just look best with that 23c skinny-racer aesthetic--- but there's also no question that modern wider tires have made huge leaps forward in weight, suppleness and overall "feel". Once I figured out that I could go just as fast or faster without the "400 blows"..... I was (and am) sold on fatter tires.

Maybe the absence of jarring, tooth-rattling suffering during my road rides has made me soft--- but I'll still opt for a bit more rubber between me and the road when fork/chainstay clearance allows......
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Old 06-11-21, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by steelbikeguy
I've never ridden on the Wolber Invulnerable, but their ads did make an impression on me.. mostly "what is it like when you put chain mail armor in a tire?".
Steve in Peoria
They weren't as nice as, say, Clement Criterium, but they were better than the clinchers of the day (don't know how they'd compare now, but I bet they'd hold their own at least). The steel belt seemed to work for me, with very few flats, fewer than the Kevlar belted Clement Futuras, and much better than standard sewups (keeping in mind of course that the plural of anecdote isn't data). Rode better than the Futuras, too, IMO.
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Old 06-11-21, 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by C9H13N
I don’t mind the ride. But I’ve fallen enough times with skinny tires when hitting tiny obstacles like driveway lips and pavement separations at just the wrong angle.

Even a 28 tire requires significantly less concentration to avoid these incidents. Since all my riding is on Seattle streets, it’s not worth it.
Yup, with the 700x23 Soma Supple Vitesse I need to remind myself that the tires only *feel* like I'm on wider, softer tires. But those skinny shoes are still vulnerable to being knocked outta whack by minor road hazards that actual wider tires would roll over without drama.

On a group ride a couple of years ago I saw a horrific crash immediately in front of me that reminded me to pay attention to the road at all times when on my road bikes with skinny tires. (Good practice anytime, but especially with skinny tires.)

The fellow was riding the tops, not the hoods or drops, coasting down a descent at around 20 mph. On good pavement it wouldn't have gotten my attention, but this was striated concrete slabs, with slightly uneven seams between the slabs, and no asphalt topping to smooth out the striations and seams. I noticed him riding alongside a seam that was flat ... but still bad practice in case the next slab and seam was uneven. Sure enough, that's what happened. He nicked the uneven seam edge and, being relaxed with hands on the tops rather than hoods or drops, lost his balance and immediately hit the deck, hard on the right side of his helmeted head... then skidded about 10 feet headfirst into a sloped curb. Bad concussion and shock. I heard he was recovering but haven't heard any details.

It was the kind of thing that a typical hybrid with 700x32 or wider tires would have shrugged off. But those skinny tires are very unforgiving of that kind of road flaw.

After that incident I was much more careful about which wheels I followed in group rides. If I don't trust the guy ahead of me because he's not calling out significant hazards, leading us across debris without calling out, and I can't see the road surface, I look for a better wheel to follow or bail out and go my own way.
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Old 06-11-21, 03:08 AM
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Originally Posted by non-fixie
For Mario stem length was also needed for another reason. Pam just wouldn't look as good on an eighty mm stem:


I met her at a NASCAR race in 2004. I was in the military and a bunch of us got to attend to do some kind of event. Let me tell you about Pamela Anderson. She was the most beautiful female I ever laid eyes on and she was very nice, not stuck up at all. In person she looked 100x better than on television. She's a tiny little thing.
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Old 06-11-21, 04:35 AM
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An added advantage of 23s: you can get some good deals on them, since they’re no longer mainstream.
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Old 06-11-21, 05:38 AM
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Great topic! I have the 23's on my 87 Panasonic DX-4000, inflated to about max (140psi). They do ride hard and fast. I have a 84 Panasonic with 27" x 1" Panaracers. What psi are people running on the 23's. If I'm going to ride a not so good road, I use the mountain bike with 1.25 wide smoothy.

Art

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Old 06-11-21, 05:43 AM
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I have one bike , my 1977 Raleigh Competition GS that is running 23c and it is fun to ride but the road has to be in good shape. Unfortunately a lot of roads in my area are in need of repair. On my Medici I run 25c and that works on most roads but not as comfy as my other bikes that are running 28c. As far as speed goes I am pretty consistent from bike to bike so it is more about feel , I guess. The times I ride the Raleigh I keep thinking of how fun the bike is , very light feeling and quick in the turns , like the Medici. This is another reason one bike won’t work for me!
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Old 06-11-21, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by awk409ak
Great topic! I have the 23's on my 87 Panasonic DX-4000, inflated to about max (140psi). They do ride hard and fast. I have a 84 Panasonic with 27" x 1" Panaracers. What psi are people running on the 23's. If I'm going to ride a not so good road, I use the mountain bike with 1.25 wide smoothy.

Art
I love the Panaracer 27 x 1 tires. I have them on two bikes. Also the 700 x 28. I run 110lbs on my Raleigh with the 23c Kevlar tires. I weigh 155.
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Old 06-11-21, 06:08 AM
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Dang! Prowler ! You know how to really stir up a great pot of beans!
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Old 06-11-21, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by awk409ak
..... What psi are people running on the 23's. ......
Art
100psi, assuming I can trust my Silca pump.
I weigh 155 pounds.

Inflation pressure should be appropriate for one's weight. Like all suspension systems, less force is needed for a lighter payload.
Someone had a guideline for how much the tire should deflect when the rider is on the bike. I think it was something like the tire height should decrease 15%, but I don't recall any details.

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(and I use 90psi in 28mm tires)
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