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Does it bug anyone else - TdF and Merckx

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Does it bug anyone else - TdF and Merckx

Old 07-09-21, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by malcala622
Sorry but I think this last stage 13 "win" was gifted to Cavendish. The other 3 riders sprinting to the finish let up a few seconds before crossing.
You may very well be right about this. However, IMO that doesn't meant that it wasn't deserved and one of those other riders was a teammate who was trying to lead Cavendish to the stage win anyway.
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Old 07-09-21, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by fettsvenska
You may very well be right about this. However, IMO that doesn't meant that it wasn't deserved and one of those other riders was a teammate who was trying to lead Cavendish to the stage win anyway.
Gifted is gifted. There was never anyone strong enough to gift Merckx anything.
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Old 07-09-21, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by malcala622
Sorry but I think this last stage 13 "win" was gifted to Cavendish. The other 3 riders sprinting to the finish let up a few seconds before crossing.
Bull$#!+. 2nd place finisher was Morkov - Cav's leadout guy. He was cruising because his job was done. Philipsen (Alpecin) started his sprint from Cav's wheel and doesn't have the speed to get past him. Cortina (Movistar) started his sprint at 350M+ in an effort to spoil the DQS party, and was totally out of gas at the line. There are no sprinters left in the race who are at Cav's level, and he has the advantage of an excellent leadout team, savvy tactics, and the experience to know when to be patient. Cav stayed on Morkov's wheel, even when getting swamped by other riders going around him early, showing full faith that Morkov would deliver him to the right place at the right time, and he did. They aren't gifting him anything. They simply can't compete.
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Old 07-09-21, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by ctak
Bugs me about as much as the fact that positive drug tests in Merckx's day carried a 1-month suspension
Originally Posted by SoccerBallXan
From alcohol to amphetamines then amphetamines to new age PEDs, drugs will always be part of the sport. Winners and losers alike cyclists seem to love a bit of physical/mental alteration…
There is a huge difference between the drugs of Eddy Merckx' day and now. The drugs then could win you races but if you relied on them time after time, your body could not survive long at the pro level. EPO was a game changer. Those who used it regularly achieved levels never seen before and could maintain those levels.

Another achievement Eddy Merckx achieved was arriving in Paris as the holder of all three jerseys. (It would have been four but the Tour did not have the young rider's jersey yet.)

To Cavendish's credit, I haven't heard him say once that he was anywhere near Merckx' equal. Instead, he credited a woman who had just won her 30th Donne Giro stage as greatest of all time, pointing out that she also won world championships in 3 disciplines (road, track and cyclocross) plus Olympic golds in two.
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Old 07-09-21, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Eric F
Bull$#!+. 2nd place finisher was Morkov - Cav's leadout guy. He was cruising because his job was done. Philipsen (Alpecin) started his sprint from Cav's wheel and doesn't have the speed to get past him. Cortina (Movistar) started his sprint at 350M+ in an effort to spoil the DQS party, and was totally out of gas at the line. There are no sprinters left in the race who are at Cav's level, and he has the advantage of an excellent leadout team, savvy tactics, and the experience to know when to be patient. Cav stayed on Morkov's wheel, even when getting swamped by other riders going around him early, showing full faith that Morkov would deliver him to the right place at the right time, and he did. They aren't gifting him anything. They simply can't compete.
Relax no need to get worked up. What if his lead out is capable of winning the stage by outspinting CAV. It was cool to see another BORA rider win a stage besides Sagan.

Not taking away what CAV has done this TDF but I'm just stating what I saw.

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Old 07-09-21, 10:20 AM
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Just a different take...if anything Cavendish's record is special in an individual way different from Merckx. The specialization in the sport (climbers, sprinters, time trial specialists, overall competers), has made it difficult to dominate a particular aspect of the Tour...you have 20 riders who train especially for the sprint, 20 for the mountains, 20 for the long flat stages to protect the team leader (domestiques), and the competers...that makes Cavendish's sprint win record pretty impressive.

It should NOT be compared with Merckx overall greatness...they are different things, and special in their own rights.
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Old 07-09-21, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by jdawginsc
It should NOT be compared with Merckx overall greatness...they are different things, and special in their own rights.
Well said. Perfect.
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Old 07-09-21, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by malcala622
Relax no need to get worked up. What if his lead out is capable of winning the stage by outstripping CAV. It was cool to see another BORA rider win a stage besides Sagan.

Not taking away what CAV has done this TDF but I'm just stating what I saw.
You said you saw the other riders "let up" before the finish, and suspect that they did it with intent to give Cav the win. If that's your conclusion, you aren't really paying attention to what was actually happening at the finish, and why it happened the way it did.

The same question was asked frequently when Mark Renshaw was Cav's final leadout guy. Morkov might be capable of winning, but that's not his job, and don't be so sure. He's a professional with a specific task, and he is doing it excellently. That's the kind of work that keeps you getting picked by your DS for the big races, and keeps your contact getting renewed. Go rogue to steal a win from the designated sprinter on a hot streak, and you quickly find yourself looking for employment, probably with a pay cut. That said, if Cav wasn't delivering, the game would need to change. The other complication is that there is a skillset to being a sprinter. It's not just about being able to go fast. A fast finisher might be able to steal a couple of wins by surprise on occasion, but it's a totally different game when everyone is focused on trying to beat you, and you can still win.
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Old 07-09-21, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Eric F
You said you saw the other riders "let up" before the finish, and suspect that they did it with intent to give Cav the win. If that's your conclusion, you aren't really paying attention to what was actually happening at the finish, and why it happened the way it did.

The same question was asked frequently when Mark Renshaw was Cav's final leadout guy. Morkov might be capable of winning, but that's not his job, and don't be so sure. He's a professional with a specific task, and he is doing it excellently. That's the kind of work that keeps you getting picked by your DS for the big races, and keeps your contact getting renewed. Go rogue to steal a win from the designated sprinter on a hot streak, and you quickly find yourself looking for employment, probably with a pay cut. That said, if Cav wasn't delivering, the game would need to change. The other complication is that there is a skillset to being a sprinter. It's not just about being able to go fast. A fast finisher might be able to steal a couple of wins by surprise on occasion, but it's a totally different game when everyone is focused on trying to beat you, and you can still win.
I'll say it again. Im just stating what I saw.
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Old 07-09-21, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by malcala622
Relax no need to get worked up. What if his lead out is capable of winning the stage by outspinting CAV. It was cool to see another BORA rider win a stage besides Sagan.

Not taking away what CAV has done this TDF but I'm just stating what I saw.
Concessions noted.

Philipsen to his team DS: "Well, I sandbagged the sprint to let Cav win again, as you ordered me to. Explain again why you had me do that?"

Team DS: "But it's obvious! Now, when I talk to the sponsors who spent millions of Euros to field a professional team capable of winning sprint stages at the world's most prestigious cycling event, I'll be able to tell them that the half-dozen or so novice Tour watchers who correctly interpret your actions as a sentimental gesture in support of another team's sprinter will admire us, for at least the rest of the day."
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Old 07-09-21, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Eric F
The same question was asked frequently when Mark Renshaw was Cav's final leadout guy. Morkov might be capable of winning, but that's not his job, and don't be so sure. He's a professional with a specific task, and he is doing it excellently. That's the kind of work that keeps you getting picked by your DS for the big races, and keeps your contact getting renewed. Go rogue to steal a win from the designated sprinter on a hot streak, and you quickly find yourself looking for employment, probably with a pay cut. That said, if Cav wasn't delivering, the game would need to change. The other complication is that there is a skillset to being a sprinter. It's not just about being able to go fast. A fast finisher might be able to steal a couple of wins by surprise on occasion, but it's a totally different game when everyone is focused on trying to beat you, and you can still win.
This is a good point. I obviously have no insight into the strategic plans of Cavendish's team but I think this is an illustration of how cycling teams work together to achieve certain goals and today that goal appeared to be a stage win for Cavendish. Maybe the rest of the team doesn't get as much public credit as they deserve but it appeared to me that Cav's team had a plan and executed that plan well enough to pull off the stage win. I think that you're right about the other team members. If one of them decides to go off script on their own, they might get a stage win or two but the long term consequences of doing that without the consensus of the team could be very bad for the individual.
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Old 07-09-21, 11:11 AM
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I stand by my previous comments (post 29, above), but let's give Cavendish his due as a sprinter. He did not win all of his niw 34 stages through perfect lead-outs. Over the years, he also showed an uncanny ability to come out of seemingly nowhere in a wild melee and squeeze through seemingly impossibly small gaps to get into position. And when he has had a straight shot to the line, whether due to a good lead-out or a due to his own efforts to wriggle his way to the front, he has been extremely hard to beat in a straight drag race. His acceleration from set-up fast to final-dash top speed is pretty amazing. There may be others who get up to a slightly higher top speed (van Aert and another rider were catching him at the end of the sprint stage the other day). but he goes from 60 to 100, figuratively speaking, faster than anyone.when he's in top form.

He's sort of like Rickey Henderson stealing bases. He was plenty fast in a straight foot race, but others were faster. What set Henderson apart was how quickly he could go from a standing start to top speed. In a 100m race, others could beat him. But no one was faster going 90 ft to second base.
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Old 07-09-21, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by johnnyace
Either you are daft, trying to be funny, or have a very poor grasp of pro cycling history.

But to each their own, I suppose.
I actually fancy myself on my understanding of pro cycling which is exactly why Lance is my #1. I'm not sure this is the place to discuss this, however.
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Old 07-09-21, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Eric F
You said you saw the other riders "let up" before the finish, and suspect that they did it with intent to give Cav the win. If that's your conclusion, you aren't really paying attention to what was actually happening at the finish, and why it happened the way it did.

The same question was asked frequently when Mark Renshaw was Cav's final leadout guy. Morkov might be capable of winning, but that's not his job, and don't be so sure. He's a professional with a specific task, and he is doing it excellently. That's the kind of work that keeps you getting picked by your DS for the big races, and keeps your contact getting renewed. Go rogue to steal a win from the designated sprinter on a hot streak, and you quickly find yourself looking for employment, probably with a pay cut. That said, if Cav wasn't delivering, the game would need to change. The other complication is that there is a skillset to being a sprinter. It's not just about being able to go fast. A fast finisher might be able to steal a couple of wins by surprise on occasion, but it's a totally different game when everyone is focused on trying to beat you, and you can still win.
In addition, I don't think I've seen another rider thank his team mates as much as Cav. He knows why he's at the front at the end.
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Old 07-09-21, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by malcala622
I'll say it again. Im just stating what I saw.
You're stating what you think you saw. When you actually pay attention to the factors involved with those riders in that window of time, it's very clear that they didn't "let up".

Reviewing the video of the last KM again (easy to find on YouTube), Philipsen gave it his all to get around Cav, and threw his bike at the line in a final effort. Cortina was completely gassed in the closing meters, but never stopped pedaling until he was clearly beaten shortly before the line. Morkov is really a non-factor, but he still made a lunge at the line once Cav was past him, and stole 2nd place from Philipsen. Not one of these guys "let up".
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Old 07-09-21, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by droppedandlost
In addition, I don't think I've seen another rider thank his team mates as much as Cav. He knows why he's at the front at the end.
Agreed 100%. He's made comments recognizing - and a bit in awe of - the quality of the riders delivering him to the finish, and downplaying his own role in the victory. I like this version of Cav quite a lot.
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Old 07-09-21, 11:28 AM
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I liked Cavendish from his first tour. He was brash, exuberent, and off-putting to some, but he was always honest about his feelings. He is no Eddy, and I think he knows that. Times have changed in the sport - there are specialists. In Mercks' day - not so much. Cav's tie does not diminish Eddy's accomplishment.
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Old 07-09-21, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Eric F
You're stating what you think you saw. When you actually pay attention to the factors involved with those riders in that window of time, it's very clear that they didn't "let up".

Reviewing the video of the last KM again (easy to find on YouTube), Philipsen gave it his all to get around Cav, and threw his bike at the line in a final effort. Cortina was completely gassed in the closing meters, but never stopped pedaling until he was clearly beaten shortly before the line. Morkov is really a non-factor, but he still made a lunge at the line once Cav was past him, and stole 2nd place from Philipsen. Not one of these guys "let up".
Im sticking to what I saw and my opinion. Why are you getting bent on trying to convince me otherwise.

Let it go already
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Old 07-09-21, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by malcala622
Im sticking to what I saw and my opinion. Why are you getting bent on trying to convince me otherwise.

Let it go already
Why? I'm bored at work, and I like talking about bike racing.

Unfortunately, there's no helping those who are steadfastly determined to stick to their ill-formed conclusions. Have a nice day.
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Old 07-09-21, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Eric F
Why? I'm bored at work, and I like talking about bike racing.

Unfortunately, there's no helping those who are steadfastly determined to stick to their ill-formed conclusions. Have a nice day.
Lol I could also say there's no helping those who are dogmatic.

You too have a great day. And if I catch you out in the streets we'll race!!!

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Old 07-09-21, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by malcala622
Lol I could also say there's no helping those who are dogmatic.

You too have a great day. And if I catch you out in the streets we'll race!!!
Would you really compare today's stage to the 2006 Giro stage where Voight openly and obviously gifted the stage to his Italian breakaway companion?
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Old 07-09-21, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Trakhak
Would you really compare today's stage to the 2006 Giro stage where Voight openly and obviously gifted the stage to his Italian breakaway companion?
No I'm not since I didnt see that race
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Old 07-09-21, 12:01 PM
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Back to the original topic, Bob Roll specifically mentioned today that Eddy's list of achievements would never be equaled, but Cav had a chance to tie one of those records.
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Old 07-09-21, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by droppedandlost
Back to the original topic, Bob Roll specifically mentioned today that Eddy's list of achievements would never be equaled, but Cav had a chance to tie one of those records.
Whewwwww. I am glad we cleared the air on this discussion. Thanks Mr. Roll, cycling fanatics alike appreciate the exposition!
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Old 07-09-21, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Trakhak
The best head-to-head comparison would be their hour record results (on what would have been effectively technologically identical track bikes).

Coppi: 45,848 meters.

Merckx: 49,432 meters.
A scrawny 22-year-old on wartime rations who rode from his home to the Vigorelli versus a seasoned and pampered 27-year-old riding at elevation.

Nope. Try again.
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