Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Carlton or Raleigh Build - Which Way To Go..?

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Carlton or Raleigh Build - Which Way To Go..?

Old 08-08-21, 05:13 PM
  #1  
randyjawa 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
randyjawa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada - burrrrr!
Posts: 11,250

Bikes: 1958 Rabeneick 120D, 1968 Legnano Gran Premio, 196? Torpado Professional, 2000 Marinoni Piuma

Mentioned: 201 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1234 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,285 Times in 738 Posts
Carlton or Raleigh Build - Which Way To Go..?

Normally, I would not even consider changing the livery or brand of a bicycle when repainting it. That said, I am faced with a dilemma of choice for the first time in my experience.

This 1968 Carlton Corsair started life as a 1968 Raleigh Grand Prix or visa versa. The paint is challenged as is the art work...


Were it not for the Raleigh head badge, there would be no choice presented. but the is a Raleigh head badge...


So, should I street restore a Carlton Capris or a Raleigh Grand Prix?

Also, the top tube near the head tube lug work is a wee bit squashed. The damage, if it is damage, is barely noticeable but it is there. You can also best see this in the first picture. The tube does not appear to be bent but some paint has flaked off. What the heck would cause this abnormality..?
__________________
"98% of the bikes I buy are projects".
randyjawa is offline  
Old 08-08-21, 06:01 PM
  #2  
Hudson308 
Mr. Anachronism
 
Hudson308's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Somewhere west of Tobie's
Posts: 2,088

Bikes: fillet-brazed Chicago Schwinns, and some other stuff

Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 524 Post(s)
Liked 241 Times in 160 Posts
My uneducated guess is the top tube was deformed in a collision, Randy. You may be able to roll some of it out with a set of inexpensive frame blocks from Paragon Machine.
As far as the livery, Carlton has more panache, but it does have a Raleigh head badge. Did they label frames with both brands some years?
__________________
"My only true wisdom is in knowing I have none" -Socrates
Hudson308 is offline  
Old 08-08-21, 06:17 PM
  #3  
randyjawa 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
randyjawa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada - burrrrr!
Posts: 11,250

Bikes: 1958 Rabeneick 120D, 1968 Legnano Gran Premio, 196? Torpado Professional, 2000 Marinoni Piuma

Mentioned: 201 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1234 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,285 Times in 738 Posts
Originally Posted by Hudson308 View Post
My uneducated guess is the top tube was deformed in a collision, Randy. You may be able to roll some of it out with a set of inexpensive frame blocks from Paragon Machine.
As far as the livery, Carlton has more panache, but it does have a Raleigh head badge. Did they label frames with both brands some years?
As another forum member pointed out, these rebranded frames were marketed in the US during Bike Boom years. I know not if that is really the case but the bike is, most certainly, different from anything to come my way over the years.

As for the non-round tube, my guess would be a collision of some kind, also. That said, the fork and front wheel show no damage indication such damage. To that add that, knowing many old Raleigh bikes, the apparent damage might well have originated at the factory during the building of the frame. My experience is that Raleighs, built back then, were not all that well made when craftsmanship was the issue.

Anyway, I foolishly sold my frame blocks years ago and intend to use this, found at the dump, vice to round out the top tube...


After which, I will rough build the bike and take it out for some test riding. If satisfied with the feel and performance, it will become my next build, brushed on paint job and all...
__________________
"98% of the bikes I buy are projects".
randyjawa is offline  
Old 08-08-21, 06:35 PM
  #4  
nlerner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 15,644
Mentioned: 401 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2937 Post(s)
Liked 3,634 Times in 1,629 Posts
Well, the 1967 Raleigh catalog shows a “Raleigh Carlton” model:

nlerner is offline  
Old 08-08-21, 06:39 PM
  #5  
repechage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 17,392
Mentioned: 113 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2386 Post(s)
Liked 1,306 Times in 986 Posts
Carlton
repechage is offline  
Likes For repechage:
Old 08-08-21, 07:22 PM
  #6  
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 26,813

Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com

Mentioned: 81 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1656 Post(s)
Liked 2,031 Times in 1,154 Posts
Something fell on the tube? Attempted child seat?

Don't be a fool and caveman it with that vise, you'll only make it worse. Spend the $25 and get Paragon Machine Works' 1" frame blocks: https://www.paragonmachineworks.com/...be-blocks.html, put them in the stoutest vise you have, and roll it out with lots of grease. Do NOT expect the frame block screws to do the clamping job for you; they're not made for that.

-Kurt
__________________







cudak888 is offline  
Old 08-08-21, 08:02 PM
  #7  
daka
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 285

Bikes: Raleigh Super Course x2, Raleigh International

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 130 Post(s)
Liked 160 Times in 95 Posts
I'd do the restoration as a Carlton. I'm not aware of any year of Raleigh Grand Prix ever having chromed lugs like your bike.
As far as the cross-badging is concerned, you are not alone. I have a Super Course mixte frame and fork that has a Raleigh headbadge but Carlton decals on the downtube.
daka is offline  
Likes For daka:
Old 08-08-21, 09:32 PM
  #8  
Pcampeau
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 664

Bikes: 1968 Raleigh Super Course. 1972 Raleigh Professional, 1975 Raleigh International, 1978 Raleigh Professional, 1985 Raleigh Prestige, 1972 Schwinn Paramount, 1980 Schwinn Voyageur 11.8, 1978 Schwinn Varsity, 1976 Peugeot PX10, 1972 Motobecane Le Champ

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 217 Post(s)
Liked 328 Times in 188 Posts
Another vote for Carlton decals even with the Raleigh Headbadge. Like daka, I too have a 68 Super Course (67 serial number) with a Raleigh Anniversary badge and Carlton Decals, I couldnít be happier about it. This happened in 1968 at Worksop, abnormal is completely normal in this era. Chrome lugs say Carlton and so do itís present decals. I like it!


Pcampeau is offline  
Likes For Pcampeau:
Old 08-09-21, 07:29 AM
  #9  
3speedslow
Senior Member
 
3speedslow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Jacksonville, NC
Posts: 9,110

Bikes: A few

Mentioned: 114 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1880 Post(s)
Liked 816 Times in 518 Posts
I was going to vote Raleigh but compelling arguments make me say Carlton.
3speedslow is offline  
Old 08-09-21, 09:01 AM
  #10  
oneclick 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 1,888
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 709 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 740 Times in 444 Posts
Originally Posted by Pcampeau View Post
Chrome lugs say Carlton and so do itís present decals.
What's the threading?
oneclick is offline  
Old 08-09-21, 09:45 AM
  #11  
Pcampeau
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 664

Bikes: 1968 Raleigh Super Course. 1972 Raleigh Professional, 1975 Raleigh International, 1978 Raleigh Professional, 1985 Raleigh Prestige, 1972 Schwinn Paramount, 1980 Schwinn Voyageur 11.8, 1978 Schwinn Varsity, 1976 Peugeot PX10, 1972 Motobecane Le Champ

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 217 Post(s)
Liked 328 Times in 188 Posts
Originally Posted by oneclick View Post
What's the threading?
I may have been unclear. The Chrome Lugs and Carlton decals line you quoted was in Reference to the OPs bike. If youíre wondering about my Super Courses bottom bracket threading, I believe it was French threaded, but I havenít serviced it in awhile so I could be mistaken.
Pcampeau is offline  
Old 08-09-21, 11:25 AM
  #12  
daka
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 285

Bikes: Raleigh Super Course x2, Raleigh International

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 130 Post(s)
Liked 160 Times in 95 Posts
Originally Posted by oneclick View Post
What's the threading?
@oneclick has a good thought there. Measure the bottom bracket width - if it is 68mm wide, you know it was Carlton-built. A Nottingham built Raleigh is likely to have the wider Raleigh bottom bracket.
daka is offline  
Old 08-09-21, 11:35 AM
  #13  
Murray Missile 
Senior Member
 
Murray Missile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: 700 Ft. above sea level.
Posts: 2,679

Bikes: Not as many as there were awhile ago.

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 434 Post(s)
Liked 550 Times in 305 Posts
Please pardon the thread hijack but I'm in need of a Raleigh head badge with that hole spacing for my Raleigh Carlton.

Originally Posted by randyjawa View Post


__________________
".....distasteful and easily triggered."
Murray Missile is offline  
Old 08-09-21, 12:09 PM
  #14  
John E
feros ferio
 
John E's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: www.ci.encinitas.ca.us
Posts: 21,010

Bikes: 1959 Capo Modell Campagnolo; 1960 Capo Sieger (2); 1962 Carlton Franco Suisse; 1970 Peugeot UO-8; 1982 Bianchi Campione d'Italia; 1988 Schwinn Project KOM-10;

Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1165 Post(s)
Liked 705 Times in 496 Posts
Carlton, of course. No bias on my part.

__________________
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
John E is offline  
Old 08-09-21, 04:00 PM
  #15  
oneclick 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 1,888
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 709 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 740 Times in 444 Posts
Originally Posted by daka View Post
@oneclick has a good thought there. Measure the bottom bracket width - if it is 68mm wide, you know it was Carlton-built. A Nottingham built Raleigh is likely to have the wider Raleigh bottom bracket.
You can actually tell just from looking on the Cobra, the bbshell (26tpi) is much thicker-walled and it looks larger, the bb cup flanges don't reach the edge.
oneclick is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.