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Unusual lug cut out?.

Old 09-04-21, 01:43 AM
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Unusual lug cut out?.

Wow, last post was March, time flies... Hope you're all well.
This was posted on a FB group, so you may have already seen it? Anyone know who used this pattern? I accidentally posted this on the appraisals forum, could a Mod delete the other one please?


Not much change here, still not riding but have the appointment with the knee specialist on Monday, so maybe before the end of the year, although TBH if I was good to go in Spring I'd be a happy bunny... Take care all!
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Old 09-04-21, 07:56 AM
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I have a set of those lugs. I forget who made them, but they came off the shelf with that cut-out pattern.
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Old 09-04-21, 08:45 AM
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Richard Sachs?

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Old 09-04-21, 12:22 PM
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not a good match to the Sachs logo, and he is very precise with that logo: I haven't seen any variations once it was adopted and the old original Richard Sachs logo replaced by it
.

BTW, the 2 little "wavy lines" cut outs in the front of the headlugs look familiar, but not ringing any bell...
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Old 09-04-21, 03:06 PM
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Another pic added... anyone recognise the format? SC00169 19 12 83
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Old 09-04-21, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by MiloFrance View Post
Wow, last post was March, time flies... Hope you're all well.
This was posted on a FB group, so you may have already seen it? Anyone know who used this pattern? I accidentally posted this on the appraisals forum, could a Mod delete the other one please?


Not much change here, still not riding but have the appointment with the knee specialist on Monday, so maybe before the end of the year, although TBH if I was good to go in Spring I'd be a happy bunny... Take care all!

Hi MiloFrance, good to hear from you again.

Those are Prugnat Luxe 65 L 'Victoire' lugs, which I think came out in October 1985 (and were, as this writeup states, intended for high end frames):





There were also ones without the squiggly cutouts in the front (65 D 1 C) - don't know if those were concurrent with the 65L or an earlier version:




Multiple builders used these, although they weren't extremely popular (having come out as late as 1985, I'm not surprised). As for the serial number - it doesn't ring any immediate bells, but I'll look around. More detailed pics of the rest of the bike might help jog memory.

Good luck with the knee appointment!
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Old 09-04-21, 08:53 PM
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And with a brazed on number tag that is definitely a higher end frame.
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Old 09-04-21, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by MiloFrance View Post
Another pic added... anyone recognise the format? SC00169 19 12 83
Checked some of my pics and it looks like that number format was used on Gitane Pros. I can't remember seeing one with Prugnat Victoire lugs before though.
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Old 09-04-21, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by MauriceMoss View Post
Checked some of my pics and it looks like that number format was used on Gitane Pros. I can't remember seeing one with Prugnat Victoire lugs before though.
That would be most cool... I'm thinking about negotiating for it, for as a swap for something worth more on paper but too small for me. For some reason it really appeals to me, and I don't have a higher end Gitane in my quiver.
It wouldn't be like CYFAC where the rider initials are part of the frame number?

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Old 09-05-21, 04:20 AM
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1984 Gitane Team Pro

MiloFrance

BINGO!

Except for the lugs and chrome DS chain stay, the details on your frame match my 1984 Gitane Team Pro: Arcore aero forged sloping fork crown, number tag, internal rear brake cable in the top tube, location of the seat stay attachment at the top of the seat lug and Simplex dropouts.




The 1984 Gitane Team Pro frame was listed as made with Columbus Competition tubing - no such thing. Most likely Columbus SL.

Greg Softly, Cyclomondo in OZ made these French Columbus stickers.



Gitane used Campagnolo dropouts on most of their top end and pro bikes. For about a year after the Fignon Ti BB spindle incident it appears that they switched from Campy to French components on team bikes - Spidel and Mavic.

They didn't use this style of Simplex dropouts on many bikes, instead during much of the 80's they went with Vitus dropouts.




Serial numbers on Gitanes mean NOTHING! Members of the GitaneUSA.com Forum spent over a year compiling Gitane serial numbers and came to that conclusion.

Here's the serial number on my 1984 Team Pro plus 2 other 1984 Team Pros.





The pearlescent white paint is a 37 year old mystery

Frame could have been made for some independent French team or even a large bike shop... Tubing could be Columbus SL, Reynolds 531c or even Super Vitus 983.

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Old 09-05-21, 11:35 AM
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Wow, most impressive sleuthing and knowledge from first MauriceMoss and then Chas: what a team!
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Old 09-05-21, 12:01 PM
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Nice to see you posting again, Milo. Best of luck with the appointment tomorrow! Hope to see you (and mrs MiloFrance - you promised! ) at some event next year.

BTW, that is a very pretty frame.
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Old 09-05-21, 01:34 PM
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Serial Number

Originally Posted by MiloFrance View Post
Another pic added... anyone recognise the format? SC00169 19 12 83
As I mentioned above, the "serial" numbers on Gitanes and most of the the other French makers mean nothing.

Back 10-12 years ago, we concluded on the GitaneUSA Forum that the numbers stamped into Gitane frames could be production batch numbers, order numbers from wholesalers or large bike shops or who knows what. Add to that, most of the large French makers have been out of business for 25 to 45 years. Any records most likely are long gone.

The only thing that makes sense is the build date of the frame: 19 12 83 - December 19, 1983 which would probably make it a 1984 model made in 1983???

My Team Pro is 12 3 84 - March 12, 1984.

The 1983 Team and Team Pro bikes that I have photos of used Simplex proprietary brazed on front derailleur mounts. Also the Gitane sticker was on the front of the seat tube not both sides like the 1984 bikes.

1983 Team Pro Bike



1983-84 flyer with Laurent Fignon



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Old 02-06-22, 11:37 AM
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The plot thickens, but not much. Finally got it in my muddy paws this weekend. 26.8 seat post, campag dropouts, 35 X 1 BB.
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Old 02-06-22, 11:39 AM
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The plot thickens, but not much. Finally got it in my muddy paws this weekend. 26.8 seat post, campag dropouts, 35 X 1 BB.
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Old 02-06-22, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by MiloFrance View Post
The plot thickens, but not much. Finally got it in my muddy paws this weekend. 26.8 seat post, campag dropouts, 35 X 1 BB.
Are the tubes metric, 28.0 mm seat tube? If so then it is decently thin-wall to have a 26.8 post, probably 0.5 mm. Most French/metric lightweeights used a 26.6 post or even 26.4. Though it could have been reamed larger, with say a 0.6 mm ST, as with Columbus SL.

If the ST is 1-1/8" OD, then that implies a relatively thick wall like around 0.8. Too thick to be the unbutted part of a single-butted ST, on what looks like a high-end road racer, so that might mean a double-butted tube. Which is also cool, I like that feature, a decent amount of added reliability there for very little weight added.

'84 would put it near the end of the era of metric-sized frame tubes on French bikes, right? I don't really know when they stopped using metric. Maybe about when they stopped using 35x1 BB threads? I'm curious. Do you have calipers for measuring the tube diameter? Most plastic cheapo calipers aren't good to a tenth of a mm but just about any vernier, dial or digital calipers with metal jaws should be able to do it.

On the other hand since the bike has been positively ID'd, we can just ask verktyg , I bet he knows whether the tubes are inch or metric, no need to measure!

Mark B
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Old 02-06-22, 03:26 PM
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Not the lightest but it's a 58cm...


With Campagnolo BB and headset
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Old 02-06-22, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by MiloFrance View Post
Not the lightest but it's a 58cm...


With Campagnolo BB and headset
Does that include the fork?
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Old 02-06-22, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ColonelSanders View Post
Does that include the fork?
Yes
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Old 02-15-22, 07:57 PM
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Gitane Mystery Frame

Originally Posted by MiloFrance View Post
Not the lightest but it's a 58cm...


With Campagnolo BB and headset
58cm Frame/Fork/BB/Headset: 3044g = 6.7 Lbs.
The Campy BB weighs ~190-200g = ~7 oz.
The steel Campy headset weighs ~135g = ~5 oz.
That weight ~2700g = ~6 Lbs. seems a little heavy???

Originally Posted by bulgie View Post
Are the tubes metric, 28.0 mm seat tube? If so then it is decently thin-wall to have a 26.8 post, probably 0.5 mm. Most French/metric lightweeights used a 26.6 post or even 26.4. Though it could have been reamed larger, with say a 0.6 mm ST, as with Columbus SL. Mark B
Metric 28mm Columbus SL, Super Vitus 971 and other 0.9mm x 0.6mm seat tubes took a 26.6mm seatpost when properly rounded out and reamed.

This Raleigh SBDU seatpost chart shows that 26.8mm fits a 0.4mm wall thickness 28mm seat tube. That would be Reynolds 753R or 531P.


Gitane used that style of fast back seat stay attachment, an internal rear brake cable plus the Arcore cast fork crowns on their top models from the 1984 model year up to 1987.

My guess is that this could be a 1987 Team Pro frame. They were made of Reynolds 531P tubing and had Campy 1010B dropouts rather than the offset ones made by Vitus.

1987 Team Pro catalog page:



Here's some photos of the RS model, the next one down from the Team Pro. It shows the seat stays, crown and internal brake cable. It also has Vitus dropouts. Also a Reynolds 531P sticker.





Originally Posted by bulgie View Post
If the ST is 1-1/8" OD, then that implies a relatively thick wall like around 0.8. Too thick to be the unbutted part of a single-butted ST, on what looks like a high-end road racer, so that might mean a double-butted tube. Which is also cool, I like that feature, a decent amount of added reliability there for very little weight added.

1984 would put it near the end of the era of metric-sized frame tubes on French bikes, right? I don't really know when they stopped using metric. Maybe about when they stopped using 35x1 BB threads? I'm curious. Do you have calipers for measuring the tube diameter? Most plastic cheapo calipers aren't good to a tenth of a mm but just about any vernier, dial or digital calipers with metal jaws should be able to do it.

On the other hand since the bike has been positively ID'd, we can just ask verktyg , I bet he knows whether the tubes are inch or metric, no need to measure!

Mark B
Thanks for the kudos...

Doing a little more research, the frame could be a 1984 to a 1987 model. Those odd Bocama lugs would would seem to be from the mid 80's so probably the frame is an 1987 Team Pro.

I've never seen a Gitane with imperial sized tubes. Gitane, Peugeot Moto and Bertin used metric tubing up until the bloody end. My early 90's team bike is made of metric Columbus ELOS tubing.

Gitane used metric BBs and headsets up into the early 80's. That said, I have a 1974 Gitane TdF frame that came from Australia. It's metric tubes with British thread BB and steerer - for real!

Is it wrong or just French!

Another point, Gitane used a real variety of tubing on their better model bikes: Reynolds 531 with 1.0 x 0.7mm and 0.9mm x 0.6mm main tubes, Reynolds 531 SL (Extra Leger/Special Lightweight which later became 531P), 531C, 531P, 753R, and 501. Super Vitus 980 and 983 (don't recall seeing SV 971). Columbus SL.

The frame weight still throws me.

It could have been a special team built bike using some heavier gauge tubes. Into the early 80's many pro team bikes made for domestiques used heavy gauge 1.0mm x 0.7mm Reynolds 531 and also Columbus SP tubes. Reason being, the thicker tubes survived crashes and rough handling by the team support people better and were less likely to get dented.

The other thing was that the bikes for the lesser riders got passed down year to year and were resprayed for the new season.



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Old 02-19-22, 06:18 AM
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Very slow start to the build... As this will be a rider (eventually) it's going to start as a mix of what's in the box. The BB is a 114mm 35 x 1 Campag, but I know they made ISO taper as well as their own. How do I tell?
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Old 02-19-22, 11:22 AM
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More thickening of the plot...



60cm C-T, Columbus, and the edge of the letter F



SC001?!
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Old 02-19-22, 11:58 AM
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Here you go. Size looks like a match, too.

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Old 02-19-22, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by non-fixie View Post
Here you go. Size looks like a match, too.

He's on FB. Message sent with pics What are those decals?
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Old 02-19-22, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by MiloFrance View Post

He's on FB. Message sent with pics What are those decals?
I believe they read "Bernaudeau".
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