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2 mystery frames for identification?

Hello everyone,

I opened a small repair shop from my garage this March and I have been accepting donations of bikes to fixup and sell. These 2 frames were donated to me this week and I have no idea what they are. I'm based in the UK.

The white one 2.88kg 58cm was was given to me just as a frameset and the owner said that its Reynolds 631 (although I'm not convinced as it feels quite heavy) and he had the brake bosses and cable stop added so he could fit canti's. Unfortunately he gave me no indication of brand, just some visible red paint under the white, on the steerer and in the bb. Shimano SF dropouts with a frame spacing of 123mm? and forks at 100mm, 27 seatpost and the bb is English thread (has quite a distinctive cut-out section which can been seen in photo). I'm thinking it could possibly be a British Eagle, as I have seen similar almost identical lugs on some of their models but I can't find an exact match.

The brown/white frameset 2.57kg 60cm was donated to me as a complete bike. It's probably one of the ugliest paint jobs I have ever seen, but seems to be a quite well built. The dropouts on the frame (130mm spacing) and forks (100mm spacing) are Campagnolo, 27.2 seatpost and the bb is Italian thread. I suspect it is an Italian frame but other than that I have no idea.

The bike came fitted with campag nuovo record rear mech, crankset, bb, headset and shifters. The front mech is a Galli, brake levers are dia compe, cinelli bars and stem and mavic wheelset with mavic hubs. I have photos all of the parts removed that I can upload later if needed, but I'm not sure which parts (if any) are original.

Any help would be greatly appreciated and please ask if you need any further details or photos. I would like to restore both of these frames to their former glory, but first I would like to know some history and give them a name before I embark on these projects. Thanks

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b7319ba2bf.jpg

White frameset

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...28529c26d2.jpg

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...003b519a37.jpg

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e735679ce9.jpg

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ca08b4d8a4.jpg

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...22b947674c.jpg

Brown & white frameset (italian?)

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d03f72c2c4.jpg

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...cd3eab9e8e.jpg

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c89dfb2d2e.jpg

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fe56560c8f.jpg

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white -

lug pattern BOCAMA Competition 83 with cutout Nr. 1

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6a5e0416e0.jpg
shell appears BOCAMA Professional -

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...93213a5d70.jpg

crown appears BOCAMA as well but would need better image for specific identification

combination of BOCAMA lugs and Shimano SF frame ends suggests possibility of a Belgian origin

the domed stay ends suggest a product which is more "production" than "artisanal"

fluted seat stay caps appear they could be a Columbus item

brown & white -

yes, Italian threading suggests an Italian origin, however there have been cycles produced in Mexico & Belgium with this standard

there are also artisan framebuilders in the English speaking world who employ it. one such we have in my area is Albert Eisentraut (mentioned as example only).

lots of mixed messages here: full sloping crowns had gone out of fashion by the time recessed brake mounting came in. brake bridge appears it may not be made to accept recessed brake mount. we see investment cast bridges and lugs yet seat stay cap is a simple unpretentious one. shell is also the BOCAMA Professional. certainly appears to have received a measure of reworking. doubt all braze-ons original.

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Any serial numbers? If so, where on the frame?

Quote:

Originally Posted by USAZorro (Post 22236500)

Any serial numbers? If so, where on the frame?

No visible serial numbers on both frames I'm afraid. I haven't tried removing paint from the underside of the bb shell to investigate further yet but I can't see any signs of any kind of stamping, anyone got any good methods to do this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MUDCOWS (Post 22236520)

It depends on whether or not you intend to repaint them. You could use chemicals or mild abrasives to expose the metal (and potential stamping underneath). Also, have you checked the steerer tubes for markings? Some frame makers duplicate the frame number on the steerer.

Thank you so much for you insight juvela, what you have provided so far is super helpful. I am wondering if these frames have been built by some artisan frame builder that may be impossible to identify. Here are some more photo's of the white frame plus the parts that came off the brown/white frame. I can confirm brown/white frame has a recessed brake mount on the bridge.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8300aaeef2.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d495bb09ac.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5f27033685.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3399ff20d3.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...425bcdf0b7.jpg
brown & white frame parts
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...df3f726696.jpg
brown & white frame cinelli bars and stem
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c2fbd7006c.jpg
brown & white frame mavic wheelset with 6 spd regina freewheel

Quote:

Originally Posted by USAZorro (Post 22236536)

Both frames are in desperate need of a respray and some internal frame protection so I will try removing some paint tomorrow and give an update on any serial numbers. I have inspected both steerers and there is no markings there either.

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are dropouts and fork ends a match on both frames?

have you discovered any markings on frames or steerers?

white frame -

the combination of domed taper tube ends and the lack of reinforcement on the seat lug binder ears together with the simple bridges is strongly suggestive that frame very much a production item rather than something artisanal

always possible it may have been contract produced in which case nominal brand name and actual producer name would differ...

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forum member MauriceMoss will be sure to have some solid information for you on these when next he drops in ;)

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I can confirm that both dropouts on the frame and fork are a match on the white frameset. On the brown/white frameset I know they are both campag dropouts, but not sure if they are matching, I will remove some paint tomorrow and take further photos.

Both frames and steerers are totally void of any markings. I will get to sanding the bb area tomorrow.

The fork on the white frame looks like it is a slightly different shade in your images - wondering if it is original? Could Dawes be a possibility?

Looks like the other frame has a Sugino clamp bolt, which doesn't really help, but it interesting alongside the Italian hypothesis.

Will be very curious to know if there's anything stamped or etched into the seat stay caps. If there is, you'll understand why I'm pointing that out :D

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two simple checks you could make, if you have not done so already -

a) examine interior of head tubes for any sign of headplate fastener holes being filled in

fastener arrangement and spacing could be a helpful clue should you get down to evaluating specific identity candidate/candidates

b) check shell width of white machine. a 70mm BSC shell would pretty much lock in a Belgian origin while a 68mm one would not rule it out

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Quote:

Originally Posted by juvela (Post 22237654)

a) no signs of any fastener holes being filled in unfortunately.
b) just measured the bb and it measures around 67mm?https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...18df430f80.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c737c05f39.jpg

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thank you

shell likely began life at 68 and following facing slimmed down to 67

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Well, we know one was apparently red, and Shimano dropouts can pin it down to something. If the Shimano ends/DO are on the bike with the spooned seat stay caps, I think Miyata when I see that although I'm probably wrong. :)

The one with the flat seat stay caps, I'd like to see if there's anything etched/panto/embossed into the caps under the paint if possible. Is there no evidence of a number stamped anywhere in the seat cluster/lug, nor anywhere on the seat tube as a whole?

And here are the results from the brown/white frame. We got a serial number! hiding underneath the cable guide (sorry I didn't think to check there). 806174.
-Dropouts seem to be a match.
-No signs of any fastener holes in the headtube.
-No sign of any engravings on the seat stay caps.https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f0a67fecf5.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4f05641bc2.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2d3c58855c.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...85602bfdcb.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...af296a68fb.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...73e31be822.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...27eb6d11fc.jpg

Cool thread. When I was an undergrad at UCLA, one of the law students started a small used bike shop in Santa Monica, and advertised me as "house bike freak and mechanic." The enterprise was relatively short-lived, but it was fun while it lasted, and I did enjoy meeting local residents who appreciated our prices and our hours (early mornings and late afternoons, so that people could drop off bikes for repair before work and pick them up after. I wish you the best with your new shop, as I see a need for this sort of business.