reluctantsuburb

Hey all,

I commute 100% by bike in very flat Dallas, Texas. My current set up is a very upright, frankenbike '86 Schwinn Cimarron. The Schwinn is a great ride, very smooth and stable, bordering on stout. I use it to do grocery runs, haul kids, head to the office, etc. It's my poor man's Rivendell.

However, lately, I've been getting the itch for something a little more stripped down, lighter, and faster. I'm taken with the idea of a randonneur: slightly wider tires, ability for fenders and a small front load, but it doesn't need to be a quiver-killer--I already have my errand-running bike. However, I literally have never ridden a drop bar bike! I'm feeling pretty clueless. Other random things to know: I'm 6'1", 165lbs, 89cm PBH, probably looking for a 60cm frame.

Given my ignorance, I've been playing with the idea of getting something off Craigslist at a lower price that is in ridable condition that will allow me to figure out if it's worth me investing more money in. I'm thinking I can ride what I buy for a while and if I'm liking it, add a front rack, small rando bag, and perhaps do a 650b or 700c tire conversion to allow me to ride on 35s or even 38s.

All of that to ask, what do you make of this Fuji Espree? Seller seems to be a good guy, it seems to be a bike I could begin riding immediately, and it doesn't break the bank. I am not sure of the viability of converting to a 650b wheel, though did see another guy achieve it over here.

Any other frames you would recommend instead--whether currently on the market or just things I should generally be on the lookout for--, or things that I'm not thinking about?

Thanks,
Max

reluctantsuburb

Replying back to post some pics of the Espree in question, in case the CL post isn't working for anyone:

gugie 

Checking the link you included, you've got a proof of concept on a 650b conversion for this bike. Earlier Fuji's often are excellent base material for 650b conversion, they have long legs and plenty of room for wider tires and fenders.

Do you already have a set of wheels? If not, this will be your biggest cost in converting, so make sure you know what's available before you pull the trigger. Velo Orange has the best values in front handlebar bag racks. Handlebar bags can be very pricey, but I know of a few people that have taken "12 pack" coolers with plastic internal stiffeners that are the right size and shape and use those. You can find them for under $20. You'd probably want a decaleur as well, the VO model is an excellent value that works for many.

Tires are another cost, the Rene Herse 42's ride like a dream, but are pricey. Panaracer Paselas can be found for $25 each in 650b x 42 (typically shown as 1.75" online). They don't roll as nicely as the RH tires, but are more durable. Many report Gravelkings as nice riders, and fit in price between RH and Paselas.

You're likely to need longer reach brakes. If you want wide tires and fenders, you'll need centerpulls, which pivot right near the edge of the fenders. Long reach sidepulls will almost certainly pinch the fender, they pivot above the fender. You could use cantilevers to achieve the same thing, but that obviously requires frame modification. You can readily find long reach vintage Weinmann or Dia Compe centerpulls for cheap.

Good luck on your conversion!

tricky 

Just wanted to say props for commuting in Dallas! I grew up and lived there in my early adulthood. Commuting can be tough there. It's, shall we say, car-centric.

I'll let other folks with randoneur build experience chime in on that Espree. That claw type derailleur hanger means it's not high end, but it's in great shape, should fit, and I think you would enjoy it, and that's what matters.

Did a quick scan on the Dallas c-list and if you wanted to up the budget (and negotiate them down, this has been up there a month) this is a pretty cool bike. I am 6', but with long legs (not sure my PBH) so my ideal fit is something like a 59cm seat tube and 56cm top tube, but this might have a long enough top tube for you, but could also be a tad small. VINTAGE 1980 UNIVEGA SPECIALISSIMA - EXCELLENT RARE - bicycles - by... (craigslist.org)
Just posting that to show that $200 could get you into something that's a little higher end but might need a little more work if you've got the skills.

Econops

I can't speak about the Espree in particular, but I did pretty much what you're looking to do with a 1984 Del Rey. It fits 650x38 tires with fenders no problem. I could even get 700x38 to fit (sans fenders), but clearance is tight at the chainstays. Brakes are Tektro R559s and they are maxed out with the 650b wheels. You might need to measure to make sure they would fit the Espree.

I will say though, I don't love how that bike handles a front load. I have a bag that attaches to the handlebar with a Klickfix mount, and that makes the steering feel pretty heavy. It's doable, but steering feels like a chore on longer rides. I don't know the numbers but I would assume it has fairly high trail, and I imagine the Espree would be similar. It's not a dealbreaker, but it might be something to consider.

reluctantsuburb

Thanks for the input here. I don't currently have wheels but recognize that would be a big cost. I'm hoping if I eat the cost one bite at a time, so to speak, my wife will be a little more accepting! Anywhere you'd recommend looking at wheelsets? Or just watching CL?

Thanks for the props
Yes, I saw this Specilissima! I was initially scared away by the price tag but talking him down after a month on there may be worth a shot.

Thanks so much for posting your Fuji! Great to see a successful conversion example; it looks great.

Asking purely out of ignorance: with the bag affecting steering, that was with it clamped to the handlebar? Do you think it would it pose a similar problem if I was running an axel mount front rack?

gugie 

I highly doubt you'd find a pair of 650b wheels on CL. There is a 650b google group you may want to join and ask there.

It doesn't matter how the handlebar bag is attached to the bike, steering is affected by the distance between the center of mass on the bag from the fork steerer and the mass of the bag. Low trail minimizes the effect, some might say a loaded handlebar bag improves steering on low trail.

USAZorro

That's a 60 cm frame??

I have a 1972-ish Fuji Finest that's been on 3 Seagull Centuries. If only it had a few attachment points... but it did help me realize that p-clamps aren't the way to go. Unfortunately, I can't comment on how it compares with the model you're considering.

I also get why you're interested in going 650b, as I've had a sport-touring bicycle adapted to work with that wheel size. I opted to modify a 1972 Raleigh Competition with cantilever brake posts, fittings for bottle cage bolts and a couple other small improvements (praise be unto gugie). I really wanted to use 42mm tires, so I went that route vice extra-long reach side-pulls, but I did weigh both options. I also made a couple mistakes which I eventually learned from. I was affected by similar rando aspirations just after acquiring a 1983-ish Miyata 210. It was a touring bike, very nicely made, had stable handling, had clearance to run 700c tires up to 35 or possibly even 38, had sufficient fittings, but it handled like how you described your Cimmaron.

Long story short, I attempted building a Surly LHT with an eye to using light components, but what I ended up with was very much like the Miyata, but with better gearing, indexed shifting and a place to carry spare spokes. I tell you to hopefully help steer you away from pursuing a similar crazy idea.

I've also gone the route of converting a rigid 1990's Giant Iguana to a 2 x 10 drop bar rig. This one was just for fun, and while I get a grin when I'm riding on 54mm marshmallows of tires across pretty much whatever I want, this also is certainly NOT a good route if one desires a randonneuse.

The essentials seem to be a sport touring geometry with good clearance, sufficient fittings for cages, bags, mud guards, etc, made of good quality, lightweight frame material. Perhaps starting with a bicycle that you like the feel of is where to start.

reluctantsuburb

Haha, it says 60cm but you're the second person to sound skeptical. I just reached out to the poster, so we'll see if I get a chance to check it out in person.

Grateful for you giving some tips on your own conversion experience! The major hesitation I have with this one is the lack of braze-ons and attachment points but also I keep thinking back to my Cimarron which I treat like a pack mule...maybe it will help me not try to load this thing down!

USAZorro

It definitely is easy to go overboard with putting things on. Perhaps coming up with a list of what's essential is a good start. I would think two bottle cages, mud guards and a front bag are essential. A rear rack... wouldn't hurt to have an eyelet on the dropout and an attachment point on the seat stays in case you want to go with some rear rack wouldn't hurt, but that doesn't mean you'd have to make use of them. I think finding a bicycle with these, the needed tire clearance, and which gives a ride you like is ideal. I get that you could use other means to secure bottle cages and whatnot, but the improvisations weigh at least as much, and don't do quite as good a job.

Wish you the best in sorting things out. Looking forward to where you end up with this.

Econops

Thanks! Yes, my bag clamps to the handlebar and it's pretty far above the wheel. As far as I understand, a lower center of gravity would have less of an impact on steering, but you're still adding weight to the front end. Using a rack might help if it's close to the wheel. A lowrider rack might be a good option, but you would need to use panniers instead of a handlebar bag. True rando bikes will have lower trail to compensate for the weight. I'm told they handle great with a front load, but I have yet to try one.

bark_eater 

I didnt go thru all the Dallas listingings but theres a Nashbar and a Gitane there that might fit you. The Nashbars got a Sugino AT triple crank, but might need a 650b wheelset to get to 38mm tires. The Gitane looks like it is more likely to convert into a classic rando style machine, but likely would need a lot more work to get on the road.
https://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/bi...384331853.html

P.S. I didn't catch the cantilever brakes looking at the add with a phone, so 650b isn't realy an option, but this dose look like a nice long distance rider.

RiddleOfSteel

Looks like you have plenty of well-qualified people helping you here! In that CL ad, the seller shares a catalog picture. As befitting a non-racing bike of the era, it's size availability is pretty standardized, thus the 19", 21", 23" and 25" size listings. This one is a 25" (63.5cm CTT), with a 23" being a 58cm CTT. At 6'1", it may be real close as far as stand over height goes, but a 650B conversion would drop the bike down a hair, thus helping you if you needed it. That Fuji is beautiful, as are many Fujis of that time, pretty much regardless of rank.

Braze-ons are really nice to have, and that typically became more common the higher the rank of bike and the further into the '80s one goes. There are clamp-on solutions of course, and if you don't mind them, then it can work well.

nlerner

I had one Fuji Espree pass through my hands. It was a fine bike, but a bit on the heavy side and not exactly compliant for what it seems you intend. I’d look for a lighter weight cromo frame.

Korina

A Trek Multitrack 730 and above would be a pretty decent candidate too; it comes with rack mounts and will take wide tires.

Dfrost 

Listen to what @gugie says! He knows front loading and low trail, as well as 650B conversions. Here’s a before and after Gugificazione treatment with the ‘79 Miyata 912 that I purchased new.

Before, it was a decent handling racier sports touring bike. But it was never happy with much in a rear pannier. This is its third major configuration, not long before Mark went to work.


I brought him just the front fork in 2017, asking his help converting it into a “travel bike” with a front rando bag and optional low rider front panniers. He re-raked the fork for front load handling, added the brazed post center pull front brake, rack fittings, the custom racks, and his clever “signature” decaleur. He also connected me with Waxwing for the custom rando bag. It all works fantastically well with either just the rando bag or adding panniers, much better than expected. Steering is lovely, and benefits from the inertia of that front bag (empty or loaded) to avoid being too light/sensitive. Its quite happy with any load, pedaling in or out of the saddle. I enjoyed it today on a nice 25-miler, and toured on it several years ago. (BTW, note this bike isn’t a 650B conversion, but other bike, not a front-loader, alternates between 700x32 and 650Bx38.)

reluctantsuburb

I hadn't seen the Gitane at all. Can you help me understand why you say it would be more work? Seller lists as fully restored; I don't really know what to look for!

reluctantsuburb

Beautiful example! gugie, I bow to your wisdom. Any thoughts on this Gitane another poster pointed out? https://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/bi...380809783.html

reluctantsuburb

Did a little more research on the Gitane, probably not something I'm looking to pursue. I hoped French = more likely to fit the randonneur style, but no such luck

Response on the Fuji seemed a bit mixed. It also seems to be a size too big, though I'm waiting on the seller to get back to me. In the meantime, I'm keeping my eyes peeled for a suitable frame.

This bike (and the resulting project) are my birthday present this year--wife approved spending--so if I see a solid frame candidate, I hope to jump on it.

reluctantsuburb

A friend pointed out this paint-chipped Fuji America...Worthy of consideration, especially if I were to eventually powder coat? I've never bought a bike online, I feel somewhat wary of it.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/124793766350

ThermionicScott 

Having gone down the "rando bike" rabbit hole years ago, I'd suggest really thinking about your goals before slapping a bunch of parts together. If you do it wrong, you can very easily end up with a bike that feels slow and clunky, and doesn't handle well. That's no fun!

Do you plan on doing long rides, possibly in the rain? Is the ability to access your lunch, sunscreen, camera, tools, etc while riding a must? Are your roads rough, or pretty okay? These things inform whether fatter tires, fenders, and a handlebar bag will be worth the added weight. A lot of real randonneurs don't use handlebar bags or fat tires. Line up at a brevet and you'll see some folks just riding their skinny tire road bikes, the clip-on cue sheet holder being the only giveaway that they're not in a race or club ride.

On handlebars: since you haven't ridden with drops before, I'd suggest looking at modern drop bars with less drop and reach, including those marketed as "gravel" bars, which have more flare. I think those would be more enjoyable if you're used to upright handlebars. In other words, classic handlebars with more reach and drop, and more vertical drops may be an unwelcome change, requiring lots of work to set them up so all positions are agreeable. (And for long rides, you want as many hand positions to choose from as possible!)

A little more of my personal perspective, for what it's worth: my C&V bike journey started with skinny tire road bikes, which were not perfect, but felt fast and easy to propel. When I first built it up, my "rando bike" looked the part, but it was noticeably more work to ride over longer distances, so I didn't end up reaching for it outside of brevets or RAGBRAI. Only after seeking out lighter wheels and tires, and converting to a low-trail fork with a rack (to keep the center of gravity as low as possible) has the whole project really come together. Now it feels nimble and quick enough to grab for any occasion.

tl;dr if you're going to go this route, choose your tires wisely, and always be mindful of weight/aero/handling penalties.

tricky 

Listen to this man! If all you're after is a faster bike, then a road bike will do it for you and do it better than a rando bike. Most folks that ride PBP are on road bikes, not constructeur inspired rides like Jan Heine hypes.

reluctantsuburb

Thanks for sharing your experience. Honestly, your approach sounds like it would be a good way for me to go about it, in that since I don't really know what I want, I don't want to plunk down a bunch of money right away to find I went down the wrong path. If I could begin with a lighter, faster frame and over time make modifications towards rando as I determine my riding preferences, I think that would be ideal!

As for my goals, I don't know that I plan to participate in any true brevets in the near future due to life stage (young kids). I would like the opportunity to go on a longer, extended ride when I have the occasional afternoon off, something I can't due on my current Schwinn.

I would like a handlebar bag because I, 1) want something different than my current rear rack set up, and 2) I always like carrying things with me, so handlebar seems like the next step.

I don't necessarily need this to be an all-weather machine; my Schwinn is set up for rain riding. But I think I do want it do be a bit of an all-rounder, with fatter tires that could handle some light gravel.

Would love to hear any thoughts on that muddled mess.

Eep, I don't know what a PBP is! Personal Best Performance?

tricky 

Paris-Brest-Paris, the ne plus ultra of randonneuring. It's a 1200 kilometer ride from Paris to Brest and back to Paris with a 90 hour time limit.

"How do I qualify for PBP?
All would-be PBP participants must do a Super Randonneur brevet series (200-, 300-, 400-, and 600-kilometer events) in the year of PBP, finishing the series by mid-June."
PBP FAQ | Randonneurs USA (rusa.org)

And re: bike choices, sounds like you're on the right track. You're not in it for all out speed, just semi-comfortable, better longer distance rider with drop bars and some carrying capacity.

Korina

This Diamond Back looks pretty sweet.


Or this Trek 560.


Or this pretty Peugeot.


This Velosolex Saint Tropez may be too small, I just thought it looked interesting.


One of these Peugeots would be great, if the seller was a bit more realistic.