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interesting vintage find....need ID

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interesting vintage find....need ID

Old 09-28-21, 05:00 PM
  #1  
Tedbaz
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interesting vintage find....need ID

i recently picked up this vintage bike - in rather tough shape, but very interesting

as found....no decals or badges. Campy dropouts, headset and two-bolt seat post. Cinelli stem and bars. Superbe RD. Sugino single ring crank. DiaCompe brakes and levers. Lyotard pedals.
. Look at the pics and comments please and help with ID.
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Old 09-28-21, 05:03 PM
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Raleigh Professional Mk. IV perhaps?
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Old 09-28-21, 05:05 PM
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More Pics ...


BB has heart and bean cutouts - single cable guide.

Serial number #018

there is some damage. Note the fastback Anstays - the owner said he was "preparing it for restoration."

Another heart on the head lug. Only a RD braze on post -no FD post. Crit bike?
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Old 09-28-21, 05:06 PM
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i dont think so. look at the next pics...
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Old 09-28-21, 05:13 PM
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Another thing - the inside of the Sugino cranks is stamped with Jeffery Joiner Cycles. I live on the North Shore in Massachusetts and found this bike locally.
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Old 09-28-21, 07:21 PM
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Know anything about it, like the BB threading or serial number? My guess would be a custom build by a small builder. The heart-shaped cutouts are a bit off from the DeRosa hearts, maybe as homage.
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Old 09-28-21, 07:39 PM
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This looks like a job for @MauriceMoss
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Old 09-29-21, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by P!N20 View Post
This looks like a job for @MauriceMoss
Yes. Though I am inclined to think an American framebuilder created this. I think it was a dedicated time-trialing bike, though, so perhaps U.K.? The use of the Simplex Prestige shifter makes sense in a way - it's very, very light. And someone was thinking very hard to run a housing tunnel and a housing stop on the underside of the chainstay. Actually kinda smart. Cool bike, and shows hand-crafted imperfections that are endearing.

EDIT: Wait - or is it a dedicated hill-climbing bike?
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Old 09-29-21, 07:42 AM
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A few more pics - closeups



Fork closeup . Also 60 degree angle stamp on the lug
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Old 09-29-21, 10:36 AM
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that's got some very odd touches but very likely the product (no. 18) of an individual builder. The Campy verticals and that cut-down forkcrown are sort of less common in general but to me sort of push to "Brit" rather than "Yank". Still not conclusive.
Can we confirm if the threading is all BSC/ISO and the seatpost is 27.2, like wise there's no rifling in the steerer butt?
Some very careful details like the "fish-mouth" stay ends yet the heart cut-outs are kind of distorted/sloppy. It's built by hand (or a couple of hands), some things may have been added or modded later in life.
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Old 09-29-21, 01:43 PM
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-----

the combination of the Brampton Victor and the rapier pattern chainstays certainly screams "made in the English speaking world"

you might consider to check steerer for any markings, may discover serial to be repeated there if nothing else...

appears assembler ran into a chainline snag which required a two mm spacer; usually a one or one and one half is adequate...

date estimate - mcmlxxiii-lxxiv


-----

Last edited by juvela; 09-29-21 at 01:49 PM. Reason: addition
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Old 09-29-21, 02:01 PM
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All the detail seem to indicate custom smaller US build circa early 80's yet nothing really stands out other than the heart drill outs on the lugs which look hand done. I'm pretty sure someone here will recognize the work very nice bike.
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Old 09-29-21, 04:02 PM
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-----

headlug pattern looks to be BOCAMA Professionelles "LUXE"

heart cutout may have been achieved by expanding upon one of the four BOCAMA stock cutout patterns or it may have been done to a blank (no cutouts) lugset




bottom bracket shell, prior to alteration, BOCAMA Professional -






ends set Campag Nr. 1060 with eyelets removed -



-----

Last edited by juvela; 09-29-21 at 04:03 PM. Reason: spellin'
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Old 09-29-21, 04:26 PM
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I don’t ever remember seeing Campy vertical drops on a for real bike...

Very unique overall. Definitely hand made heart lugs, fish mouth stay ends, fastback stays, close tolerance to seat tube/rear wheel, under bracket brazed single guide, but no top tube cable guides...

Cottage built England?
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Old 09-29-21, 04:34 PM
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My Colin Laing has Campy vertical dropouts just like those.

He was also known to do that type of seatstay. He apprenticed with the Taylors in Britain and then moved to the USA.

On the other hand, I've never seen a fishmouth stay attachment on a Colin Laing bike.

Also doesn't explain how it would have ended up in massachusetts when Colin was primarily in Arizona and I feel like he worked mostly for local customers out west.
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Old 09-29-21, 09:44 PM
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That's a nice find Tedbaz .

I agree with most comments here - I think it's the work of a small builder. It also looks as if it may have had some work done post-production.
And, as rustystrings61 and unworthy1 have mentioned, it does feel a bit British and a bit American.
Perhaps it's a bit of both?

One builder who ticks several boxes here (custom builds, based in Massachusetts (Boston area), kind of smallish heart cutouts, the position of the serial number (018), and an American builder of English origin (born in London, apprenticed under Ron Cooper (who, btw, also put frame numbers on the down tube nozzle of the bb shell)) is Peter Mooney.

The mystery frame looks less refined than the most Mooneys I've seen, but #018 would indicate a very early example, so maybe that explains it? I think it would be pretty neat if this does turn out to be an early Mooney. You could contact Peter at Belmont Wheelworks and find out, one way or the other. Please let us know, whatever the answer ends up being.

Here are some examples of the heart cutouts:




This is the earliest Mooney frame I've come across (forum member pcb used to own it), with the serial number of 044:





The rest of the pics of that bike can be seen here.
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Old 09-30-21, 12:16 AM
  #17  
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Custom Built Frame

Frame looks a little cobby for a custom builder of note???

Time Trial and Criterium frames were very popular in the UK up into the late 70's, early 80's. Those types of frames had very short wheel bases and chain stays so many were made with vertical dropouts. A lot of those style bikes were only 5 speeds.

BITD Simplex and Huret made vertical dropouts but in the UK and the US, Campagnolo 1060 stamped vertical dropouts were the first choice of most builders for short wheel base frames until Suntour and Shimano started making forged steel vertical dropouts in the mid 70's.



The wide cross section on the Campy verticals had a distinct look that said there was something special about a frame.

I have or have had a number of bikes/frames with Campy 1060 vertical dropouts. I even built a few frames with them. My 1973 Raleigh RRA has those dropouts along with all French components from the factory.




I picked up this mid 70's Alpine frame to build a beater bike. It was supposed to have been made by Tom Board in the UK. It sat around for a long time. When I finally built it up, on the first ride, after 50 feet, I realized that it was a full blown criterium frame!




Here's the dropout from a late 70's Raleigh SBDU time trial frame. Note the washer brazed onto the inside of the dropout. The Campy 1060 stamped dropouts were only 5mm thick vs. 7mm thick for standard forged dropouts.

The brazed on washers increased the thickness of the dropouts which allowed the use of any wheels with the correct width hubs to fit without having to adjust the quick release for a fast change during a race.



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Old 09-30-21, 06:37 AM
  #18  
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thanks for all the information. I sent an email to Peter Mooney this morning and will let you all know his reply. Special thank to Maurice for putting all the clues together to point me in the right direction.
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Old 09-30-21, 06:46 AM
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to answer a few other questions :
- the seat post is 27.2
- the Campagnolo vertical dropouts do have spacers brazed onto the inside!
- the inside of the steering tube is smooth - I have not had the forks off the bike yet, so no info on any serial # or scribing in there
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Old 10-07-21, 01:47 PM
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Response from PMooney!

Tue, Oct 5, 2021, 11:17 AM Peter Mooney <peter@wheelworks.com> wrote:That is an oldie. I'd guess 1977 perhaps 78. Reynolds 531 frame\fork. I built it for a bike shop that was located in Marblehead. Looks like it's had a hard life. It seems to have a homing instinct for the north shore. I'd be happy to give it a quick look over if you want to stop by at Wheelworks in Belmont. Call before you come, not always here.... Peter
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Old 10-07-21, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Tedbaz View Post
Tue, Oct 5, 2021, 11:17 AM Peter Mooney <peter@wheelworks.com> wrote:That is an oldie. I'd guess 1977 perhaps 78. Reynolds 531 frame\fork. I built it for a bike shop that was located in Marblehead. Looks like it's had a hard life. It seems to have a homing instinct for the north shore. I'd be happy to give it a quick look over if you want to stop by at Wheelworks in Belmont. Call before you come, not always here.... Peter
Wow!
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Old 10-07-21, 02:59 PM
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I think you you need to start schlepping around to some of the older shops around and talk with the guys who have been around a long time. Maybe look for guys who used to race in the '80s. If there was local guy named Jeffery Joiner building bikes some old racer dude knows him. Probably the guy who rides his late '80s Italian Super Record bike everywhere and still acts like it is the '70s

My guess it is a product of a frame building class and the builder tried to put all the stuff he wanted on one frame. If it only has one shifter boss it could have been built that way for the Mt Washington Hill Climb (do they still do that?) but that is a long shot. Guys used to do weird stuff for that. Single 30t front rings and the biggest FW they could find and all sorts of crap
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Old 10-07-21, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Tedbaz View Post
Tue, Oct 5, 2021, 11:17 AM Peter Mooney <peter@wheelworks.com> wrote:That is an oldie. I'd guess 1977 perhaps 78. Reynolds 531 frame\fork. I built it for a bike shop that was located in Marblehead. Looks like it's had a hard life. It seems to have a homing instinct for the north shore. I'd be happy to give it a quick look over if you want to stop by at Wheelworks in Belmont. Call before you come, not always here.... Peter
That is extremely cool!
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Old 10-08-21, 08:34 PM
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That's awesome. Thanks for getting that confirmation Tedbaz - this is now officially the earliest Mooney frame I've seen.
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Old 10-08-21, 10:08 PM
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This subject thread really caught my attention. It wasn't obvious to me who had built it. Clues pointed in different directions. While Peter Mooney was an option, I wouldn't have given him the final choice because it is a bit unrefined. Because it only had one shift lever boss, I thought that narrowed it down to a UK builder because of their love of time trail racing. There were lots and lots of small time builders over there when I was hunting for a place to learn in the early 70s that never got recognition outside of their local area. Otherwise if it was made in the US, I would have thought like Bianchigrill that it was a product of a framebuilding class.

Peter Mooney apprenticed with Ron Cooper in London in 1976. I remember that because it was one year after I learned at Ellis Briggs in Yorkshire in 1975. That means this was one of Peter's early frames when we couldn't charge much back then and he was still probably refining his process. I've repainted a couple of Peter's frames and everything about them was spot on.
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