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New classic frame

Old 10-12-21, 10:57 AM
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phtomita
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New classic frame

Would you buy a brand new classic frame?
https://cycle.panasonic.com/products..._order/frcc02/
Cost will be $1480 + $150 shipping + taxes (+ extra for painting).
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Old 10-12-21, 11:13 AM
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Short answer: No.

Longer answer: Nothing obviously wrong with that Panasonic, and I have no problem with resurrecting good production steel frames. In fact, I hope that market takes hold. It's just that (1) I do not need and am not hungry for a new frames and (2) if I were to get something modern, I'd splurge for a custom (which I also do not need) from one of a very short list of builders. But that's just me.
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Old 10-12-21, 11:22 AM
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I cannot read japanese but if that is the full bike price... thats not bad?
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Old 10-12-21, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by bikingshearer View Post
Short answer: No.

Longer answer: Nothing obviously wrong with that Panasonic, and I have no problem with resurrecting good production steel frames. In fact, I hope that market takes hold. It's just that (1) I do not need and am not hungry for a new frames and (2) if I were to get something modern, I'd splurge for a custom (which I also do not need) from one of a very short list of builders. But that's just me.
I sense another who/what/where, past/present custom frame thread coming on.

And maybe on the Panasonic.
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Old 10-12-21, 01:07 PM
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Pig In A Poke???

Originally Posted by phtomita View Post
Would you buy a brand new classic frame?
https://cycle.panasonic.com/products..._order/frcc02/
Cost will be $1480 + $150 shipping + taxes (+ extra for painting).
IMLTHO that's a lot of money for a bare production frame. ...and can you explain "+ extra for painting" ?

$1630 for the frame and shipping + taxes which could include duty and other fees associated with importing the frame and so on.

Unless you're fluent in Japanese, you're buying "a pig in a poke".

I used to read a little Japanese and couldn't find any specifications on the frame, I.E. sizes, angles, wheel clearance and so on. Also, it's not clear whether they're selling a bare frame or a complete bike or what? Is it a custom order???

What if? If you get the frame and the size is wrong or you don't like something about it, you can't just run down to your LBS or send it back to Amazon!

In almost 40 years of dealing with major Japanese manufacturers associated with the metal working industry (Mitsubishi, Mitituyo, OSG and so on), it's always best to work through their local in country operations. Things may have changed a lot over those years but the Japanese were proud of their lack of English writing skills - JINGLISH!

Also the bike industry...

Fill us in the the details about the Panasonic frame...

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Old 10-12-21, 01:22 PM
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Speaking of new classic-looking frames. I'll be honest, it's all I can do not to pull the trigger on a Toussaint. A bunch of money sitting in paypal isn't helping either. I disassembled my last low-trail project and miss the handling. Both my 650b wheelsets are ~126mm spacing so that's keeping me right now. It looks like a perfect parts bike for the person who has a 650b rimbrake wheelset already. Not to mention that's pretty cheap for a modern new frame compared to the venerable cheap frame standby, CrossCheck.

​​​​​​https://www.cyclestoussaint.com/coll...with-braze-ons
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Old 10-12-21, 01:23 PM
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I was looking at custom frame options using Google translate, and they let you choose your preferred 'rugset', that is, your choice of 'rugs' in the construction.
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Old 10-12-21, 01:58 PM
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More on the Panasonic Order System here: 2021 Panasonic Keirin Framesets $1695 at Yellow Jersey
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Old 10-12-21, 03:25 PM
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Well, I would and I did recently buy a new production classic frame-set from another brand overseas. In my case the transaction included several phone calls from the owner (of this legacy marque) which took some of the uncertainties out of the process. Fortunately he spoke English very well and his interest in a good outcome was clear from the beginning. Without this type of personal interaction there could be a lot of question marks remaining in the process. Good luck if you choose to proceed.
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Old 10-12-21, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Dylansbob View Post
Speaking of new classic-looking frames. I'll be honest, it's all I can do not to pull the trigger on a Toussaint. A bunch of money sitting in paypal isn't helping either. I disassembled my last low-trail project and miss the handling. Both my 650b wheelsets are ~126mm spacing so that's keeping me right now. It looks like a perfect parts bike for the person who has a 650b rimbrake wheelset already. Not to mention that's pretty cheap for a modern new frame compared to the venerable cheap frame standby, CrossCheck.

​​​​​​https://www.cyclestoussaint.com/coll...with-braze-ons
Any idea about the 650b wheelset on the Toussaint site? Under $250 shipped to the US seems like itís too good to be true, especially with all the production issues right now. Iím building an early Soma Grand Randonneur this winter and just assumed Iíd have to build wheels. Iím very tempted given that the expensive wheel build was going to stretch this project out for months.
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Old 10-12-21, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by swen0171 View Post
Any idea about the 650b wheelset on the Toussaint site? Under $250 shipped to the US seems like itís too good to be true, especially with all the production issues right now. Iím building an early Soma Grand Randonneur this winter and just assumed Iíd have to build wheels. Iím very tempted given that the expensive wheel build was going to stretch this project out for months.
Agreed. I've been looking on and off for a 130 OLD 650 wheelset and those are hard to find. That's an attractive price.
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Old 10-12-21, 03:52 PM
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One builder comes to mind
Marinoni
lugged steel, SL tubing, any color, your size, chromed fork and rear stays with headset
1400$ CAN
they also do modern lugless frames, aluminium and titanium in house.
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Old 10-12-21, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Dylansbob View Post
Speaking of new classic-looking frames. I'll be honest, it's all I can do not to pull the trigger on a Toussaint. A bunch of money sitting in paypal isn't helping either. I disassembled my last low-trail project and miss the handling. Both my 650b wheelsets are ~126mm spacing so that's keeping me right now. It looks like a perfect parts bike for the person who has a 650b rimbrake wheelset already. Not to mention that's pretty cheap for a modern new frame compared to the venerable cheap frame standby, CrossCheck.

​​​​​​https://www.cyclestoussaint.com/coll...with-braze-ons
Wow, I've paid no attention to bike prices lately (one of the advantages of riding old bikes I guess). They've really gone up. The 650b Soma and VO bike frames are both close to $1,000 just for the frame. That's a lot of money for a new steel frame.
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Old 10-12-21, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by bikemig View Post
Agreed. I've been looking on and off for a 130 OLD 650 wheelset and those are hard to find. That's an attractive price.
Iíve been planning to build the wheels as a project, havenít built wheels before, but maybe buying this set and working it over with a spoke tension tool might be a good first step.
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Old 10-12-21, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by swen0171 View Post
Iíve been planning to build the wheels as a project, havenít built wheels before, but maybe buying this set and working it over with a spoke tension tool might be a good first step.
Building wheels is fun. If you've trued up your own wheels, these won't teach you much you don't already know.
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Old 10-12-21, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by bikemig View Post
Wow, I've paid no attention to bike prices lately (one of the advantages of riding old bikes I guess). They've really gone up. The 650b Soma and VO bike frames are both close to $1,000 just for the frame. That's a lot of money for a new steel frame.
I found a NOS early version of the Soma for a good deal, so starting the slow project of building a modern low trail 650b bike. But with inexpensive wheels a possibility, now Iím thinking that I could probably build an 7/8/9 speed version mostly out of the parts bin!

Every time I try to build a modern bike it turns put vintage!
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Old 10-12-21, 04:22 PM
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That's one frame among many in the "Panasonic Order System". The customer can choose among many options and color schemes. 148,500 yen (including tax) for the frame; less than double that for the whole bike with 105, more than double it for the whole bike with Ultegra.

Advantages (here in Japan) over a ready-made frame include a much greater range of sizes and color schemes; advantages over an order-made frame from a smaller shop include a pretty reasonable price and a shorter time between ordering and delivery. Advantages over a plastic frame costing about the same -- well, I needn't list these here.

I have one that's very close to this (though with very different paintwork) and a decade old. I bought it used and had it built up. I ride it a lot and enjoy it. I'm rather glad that it wasn't exported to the US (other perhaps than "grayly"): this is I suppose the reason why the fork lacks those tiresome lawyer lips.

As for the letter above, I find it understandable and amicable. I suspect that Cyclone demonstrates more effort, expertise and success with English than virtually any bike manufacturer in "the anglosphere" would have done with Japanese. The English-language education industry in Japan remains confused and grotesquely inefficient, but its end-product includes a lot of Japanese people who can converse in English; in addition, of course, to a greater number who cannot.
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Old 10-12-21, 06:42 PM
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swen0171-

My brother is a professional bike mechanic who owns a Cycles Toussaint Routier. He recently ordered an extra set of the 650B wheels you were discussing and was very pleased with them.
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Old 10-12-21, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Dylansbob View Post
Speaking of new classic-looking frames. I'll be honest, it's all I can do not to pull the trigger on a Toussaint. A bunch of money sitting in paypal isn't helping either. I disassembled my last low-trail project and miss the handling. Both my 650b wheelsets are ~126mm spacing so that's keeping me right now. It looks like a perfect parts bike for the person who has a 650b rimbrake wheelset already. Not to mention that's pretty cheap for a modern new frame compared to the venerable cheap frame standby, CrossCheck.

​​​​​​https://www.cyclestoussaint.com/coll...with-braze-ons
Crap... So glad you posted an addiction trigger. Any experience with those frames?
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Old 10-12-21, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by verktyg View Post
IMLTHO that's a lot of money for a bare production frame. ...and can you explain "+ extra for painting" ?

$1630 for the frame and shipping + taxes which could include duty and other fees associated with importing the frame and so on.

Unless you're fluent in Japanese, you're buying "a pig in a poke".

I used to read a little Japanese and couldn't find any specifications on the frame, I.E. sizes, angles, wheel clearance and so on. Also, it's not clear whether they're selling a bare frame or a complete bike or what? Is it a custom order???

What if? If you get the frame and the size is wrong or you don't like something about it, you can't just run down to your LBS or send it back to Amazon!

In almost 40 years of dealing with major Japanese manufacturers associated with the metal working industry (Mitsubishi, Mitituyo, OSG and so on), it's always best to work through their local in country operations. Things may have changed a lot over those years but the Japanese were proud of their lack of English writing skills - JINGLISH!

Also the bike industry...

Fill us in the the details about the Panasonic frame...

verktyg
I do pretty well with Japanese.
Here are the geometry of the frame

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Old 10-12-21, 08:00 PM
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I had some dialog with Panasonic USA a few years ago, after running into two exploratory Pana Japan staffers manning an actual booth at NAHBS. Since this was a few years back, I'm definitely not current with whatever they might be thinking/doing now.

What I was told then was that Pana USA had zero interest in any bicycle product other than e-bikes, which they intended to seriously pursue. They were not willing to consider any form of direct sales of non-e product into the US market through Pana USA, or any authorized Pana USA agents.

Any non-electric Pana Japan product being imported into the US, including Yellow Jersey's frames, was being done through Japan-based LBS/retailer gray market channels.

You might ask why Pana Japan had two employees with a booth at NAHBS/USA displaying bikes and seeking feedback for product they were not intending to sell directly into the US market. I was definitely scratching my head. But keep in mind both the home company and subsidiary are huge, so who knows what anybody was thinking. Maybe Japan just wanted to get an idea of where the US market for high-end non-e bikes was. You could think maybe the two staffers were mainly there to gather intel, but they could've done that easier/cheaper without spending time/money for a booth. Who knows?

In terms of what we see on Pana Japan's page, the 150k yen price shown is for the frame only, there are also prices shown for Ultegra/105 spec, but no details. Turnaround time in Japan from time of order is quoted as about 1 month. This frame is called out as "Full Order," which I think likely means it's part of Pana Japan's Panasonic Order System (they coined "P.O.S.," and have valiantly lived with it since the '80s). Which doesn't mean full-custom, built to order, it means the buyer gets to choose from a long list of proscribed options.

Just to give an idea, here's a link to their Track Frame Full Order System, which is what Yellow Jersey is basing their track frames on:
https://cycle.panasonic.com/products...os/#trackracer

Not sure where OP is getting the + $150 shipping and + paint quote from, but does that mean Pana Japan is saying/implying they'll ship direct to the US? It's hard to imaging them bypassing Pana USA and shipping direct to the US, whether to end users or retailers. I'd be interesting in hearing more about that...

In terms of value/etc: horses for courses, it depends, who's to say, yadda yadda yadda.

$1,500+ isn't cheap for a lugged steel production frame, I suppose, but a stock Mercian will cost you as much or more, and lower-cost Bob Jackson hasn't resurfaced after the business was sold to Mercian. And for folks who like to order from an extensive menu, I don't know if anybody has a more extensive menu than Panasonic.

Somebody on Classic Rendezvous got himself a very nice Panasonic sport-tour maybe quasi-rando bike this year, from Japan. Didn't hear the details about how, but it was a pretty machine.


Originally Posted by phtomita View Post
Would you buy a brand new classic frame?
https://cycle.panasonic.com/products..._order/frcc02/
Cost will be $1480 + $150 shipping + taxes (+ extra for painting).
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Old 10-12-21, 08:19 PM
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Old 10-12-21, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by pcb View Post
Not sure where OP is getting the + $150 shipping and + paint quote from, but does that mean Pana Japan is saying/implying they'll ship direct to the US? It's hard to imaging them bypassing Pana USA and shipping direct to the US, whether to end users or retailers. I'd be interesting in hearing more about that...
The Panasonic Order System doesn't sell retail (from what I understood navigating the site). I was digging around and found out the https://alexscycle.com/ that is an authorized retailer in Japan and asked them for the shipping cost for bare frame only.
There is some thread about Alex's Cycle in BF.

For paint, there are different different color/pattern you can choose from - prices in Japanese Yen (dividing by 100 gives a rough value in US dollars)
https://cycle.panasonic.com/products...c02/color.html
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Old 10-12-21, 08:51 PM
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I have a couple Chi-talian bicycles. My 2016 Masi was a "new" classic. My Colnago Super Single is also made in China. For what these are they are not bad. If you like a steel frame they are mostly not bad. If you're looking for the best performing in new steel usually a companies Retro bikes look cool but sometimes lack the qualities you would want in a dailly rider. But like in most things the main rule is to get what you like!

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Old 10-13-21, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by swen0171 View Post
Any idea about the 650b wheelset on the Toussaint site? Under $250 shipped to the US seems like itís too good to be true, especially with all the production issues right now. Iím building an early Soma Grand Randonneur this winter and just assumed Iíd have to build wheels. Iím very tempted given that the expensive wheel build was going to stretch this project out for months.
I have a set of these ready to go on a bike in my shed and have had zero time to ride other than a mile or so to make sure the brakes were set correctly. They did fine fir that but obviously not a full report.
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