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LBS Policy against working on your own bike!

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LBS Policy against working on your own bike!

Old 11-02-21, 06:54 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by USAZorro View Post
Have you tried getting parts recently? Might be that they need to keep enough on-hand to be able to perform in-house service.

I suspect the shop owner has a reason that makes sense for him, but that it was horribly communicated.
Good point.
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Old 11-02-21, 08:58 PM
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I can’t conceive of that happening around here with any of our current shops, particularly with the length of time I’ve been a customer.

Maybe they have concerns about people buying parts and installing stuff wrong and then having problems/getting hurt and creating a hassle? If so, and if the DIY customers are so few and the sales small enough, a business might decide not to bother.

It can’t sensibly be a revenue decision because the DIY customers have the ability to do stuff and access to parts online. If they were going to be a service customer, they’d bring in their bike.

One of our local shop owners even acknowledges that on his website. He does a lot of service and is fine with installing stuff that people buy online.

I only have my perspective as someone who does all their own bike stuff, not as a shop owner, but the last time I was in to grab a couple of patch kits, the mechanic said as far as he could tell, no one (except me I guess) patches a tube anymore. So, maybe the DIY customer fraction is getting quite small these days?

I go back a ways with all the local shops, so I’m sure they’d clue me in if they were thinking of going down that path. I think I amuse them with what I build and ride these days.

I suppose with new management, that could change, and I’d have to stock up all the usual stuff online.

Otto
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Old 11-02-21, 10:03 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by steelbikeguy View Post
Leuscher Teknik did a couple of videos on this particular lousy design...


Bad designs aren't the same thing as not allowing folks to repair their own stuff, but both are signs of problems in the manufacturer's mindset.
For cranky old guys like us, the attraction to reliable, simple-ish, and well designed stuff is clear.
And for broke young guys like me, it's clear that having the latest and greatest isn't important! I believe I passed a rich kid on his S-Works the other day while riding my Claud Butler in sandals. I was having a good day.

If I have too many good days, I may need to braze the frame back together again when it cracks in another place. Heavens, what would the OP's bike shop think of that?

I suppose I might be happier if I adopted the philosophy of disposable products, but I hope that doesn't happen.
Nah, you'd probably notice something meaningful was missing.
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Old 11-02-21, 11:35 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by scarlson View Post
If I have too many good days, I may need to braze the frame back together again when it cracks in another place. Heavens, what would the OP's bike shop think of that?.
It's probably against their company policy.
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Old 11-03-21, 07:13 AM
  #55  
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"I was in that town today so I stopped in because I needed some cable and housing. "

This is where the original post lost me. I cannot fathom going to a retail shop to purchase brake cables unless on an extended tour and having had a second cable failure. Then I would purchase any cable that could be made to work.

Cables and housings are consumable items, just like tubs of grease, chains, inner cables, ball bearings, and innertubes. Plus, certain tires when they are on sale and available. I stock all of these in various sizes so that repairs can be expedited when someone brings me their bike. Even basic lined housings ... I maintain a minimal stock of black and grey for any repair, and then will special order red, white, blue, yellow or braided as particular projects require.

Leave this bike shop alone. They don't need you and you don't need them.
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Old 11-03-21, 07:42 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by steelbikeguy View Post
yeah, I wonder why Deere allows these sorts of problems to exist with their dealers?
Also, why don't their competitors jump at this opportunity to steal some of that market share? I see J.I. Case and Agco hardware in use, but in pretty small numbers compared to the Deere stuff...



There are definitely some C&V tractors being used too, but tends to be on smaller properties.

The most productive equipment is usually the new stuff with the complicated sensors and actuators and all of that stuff. A lot of this stuff is communicating over networks (probably CAN), with lots of different components being essential for operation. Without the proper service tools, the odds of troubleshooting it properly might be slim. Even then, the diagnostics aren't perfect, and you might have to swap a few parts in and out before finding the real problem.
Admittedly, I'm basing this on my experience with the big yellow machines that I helped design, but I dealt with component manufacturers that were also selling to Deere, so there are known similarities. Plus... Deere was buying some joysticks that I helped develop. We got a cut for each one that Deere bought.

Actually, those joysticks are a good example of the difficulty of repairing the electronics. The stuff was potted and not easy to dig into. I had difficulties when troubleshooting items that came back from the field, and was likely to cause damage just trying to find the original fault. The potting was needed to keep it waterproof, though.

Anyway... it's easy to imagine Shimano or Campy or SRAM ending up like this... having to trash a $500 derailleur or brifter because some solder joint failed deep inside. The level of complexity and features almost guarantees that the part will be incredibly difficult to repair.
I wonder how many other engineers deal with the failings & challenges of high tech during the day, and ride home on a bike with downtube shift levers??

Steve in Peoria (but retired now)
My son works for Agco as a factory specialist dealing with combines. For the last several weeks, he has been crisscrossing Illinois and Indiana to keep the machines running. It's the Deere corporate philosophy, not just dealers, that is seeking to prevent farmers from doing their own work. I can understand proprietary software, but just refusing to sell parts is ridiculous. That has driven many farmers to switch to other colors. That is significant, since those brand loyalties have been built up for generations.

He has been carrying his bike in the truck so he can get a ride during the rare down time during harvest season. It is a 1989 Club Fuji, but it has STI levers. He had a bad crash while using the downtube shifters and asked me to change them out. My local shop still sells cables and parts. In fact, last year they had a couple clinics to teach people to rebuild old bikes.
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Old 11-03-21, 09:16 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by Pompiere View Post
My son works for Agco as a factory specialist dealing with combines. For the last several weeks, he has been crisscrossing Illinois and Indiana to keep the machines running. It's the Deere corporate philosophy, not just dealers, that is seeking to prevent farmers from doing their own work. I can understand proprietary software, but just refusing to sell parts is ridiculous. That has driven many farmers to switch to other colors. That is significant, since those brand loyalties have been built up for generations.
My sympathy and respect to your son! I've had to go out to the field to troubleshoot problems that the dealers couldn't fix, and it's not much fun to show up and be expected to fix weird problems in a few minutes. It also reminds me of my time in the Marines fixing electronics on jets, and having to fix problems that pop up when a group of aircraft start up the engines and want to go. Gotta be able to recognize the common problems, know how to fix them, and be competent enough to know when to tell a pilot that he can't fly the aircraft.

Anyway... it's hard to believe that Deere won't sell farmers the common parts that wear out frequently and aren't some sort of safety risk to replace, and don't require some sort of calibration or unique identification. That would be very analogous to the OP's issue of not being able to buy brake cable housing. A manufacturer should try to keep the customer happy, but... management sometimes listens to shareholders' demands for higher profits first, so I can see that they might push for having the dealer do all of the service. Not a great philosophy, but if they do want to push all maintenance to the dealer, they should at least make sure the dealer gets problems fixed fast and at a reasonable/competitive price.

Originally Posted by Pompiere View Post
He has been carrying his bike in the truck so he can get a ride during the rare down time during harvest season. It is a 1989 Club Fuji, but it has STI levers. He had a bad crash while using the downtube shifters and asked me to change them out. My local shop still sells cables and parts. In fact, last year they had a couple clinics to teach people to rebuild old bikes.
Nice that there's a good LBS to go to!
Glad that your son is able to enjoy a bike ride now and then. Harvest season is a crazy busy time for the local farmers, so I can't imagine your son has too much time on his hands.

Steve in Peoria
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Old 11-03-21, 09:35 AM
  #58  
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OP's situation sounds like new management and a crappy corporate policy, but I've run into this sort of thing with old school shops too. The one LBS in particular that I'm thinking of is owned by a cranky old dude who gets really pissy if you try to buy consumable parts and will make snarky comments about how he always has to fix things after people work on them. I don't go to that shop any more.

Some people are just cranky *******s.
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Old 11-03-21, 09:52 AM
  #59  
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lest not ascribe that to conspiracy which is best explained by incompetence.
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Old 11-03-21, 10:51 AM
  #60  
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Not directly on topic, but related to the farm stuff, in newer cars....or at least audi's it is difficult to replace the battery with out dealer or specialist level code and electronics update tools. That is because you have to buy the correct battery that has a code and the car's software has to have the battery code entered. So what used to be a bone simple DIY, now is a $600 shop bill

as for ag equipment, this has been an issue for my step-brother who grows organic wheat in Montana, especially as he needs bigger capacity (read newer) equipment as his kids graduate college, and aren't available to help (family farm is not dead.....just worked to death )
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Old 11-03-21, 10:55 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by Phil_gretz View Post
"I was in that town today so I stopped in because I needed some cable and housing. "

This is where the original post lost me. I cannot fathom going to a retail shop to purchase brake cables unless on an extended tour and having had a second cable failure. Then I would purchase any cable that could be made to work.

Cables and housings are consumable items, just like tubs of grease, chains, inner cables, ball bearings, and innertubes. Plus, certain tires when they are on sale and available. I stock all of these in various sizes so that repairs can be expedited when someone brings me their bike. Even basic lined housings ... I maintain a minimal stock of black and grey for any repair, and then will special order red, white, blue, yellow or braided as particular projects require.

Leave this bike shop alone. They don't need you and you don't need them.
I typically have cables and housing on hand but I built up 3 bikes this summer and have not restocked. I am pretty sure I have a cable but knew I did not have a full length section of housing. I stopped in on a whim because we were grocery shopping next door. I thought I would pop in and grab the parts I needed and talk bikes while the rib shopped. I have done this very thing numerous times before the change in ownership... I guess no more. Sad thing is that this city just lost a bike shop in the last year and I feel this one will soon be gone as well.
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Old 11-03-21, 11:15 AM
  #62  
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When it comes to servicing or repairing a CV bike, I’ll wager that a lot of us would do a better job, then the offending LBS personal.
Tim
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Old 11-03-21, 06:16 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by Vintage Schwinn View Post
Really, it isn't that crazy.... Try going to a Goodyear, Firestone, Tires Plus, National Tire, PepBoys, Wal-Mart, etc... and they probably will not sell you CARRY OUT car/suv/truck tires. Even if they did, they wouldn't at the specially advertised Sale prices. .
I've never had an issue buying tires cash & carry and at the sale price. From Goodyear, Walmart, Fleet Farm,they've never batted an eye.
Mount them myself and take to a buddy to balance. Usually it's cuz I just needed one or the installation was not going to happen "while I wait" and I needed it now.
I've bought vehicle tires from dealers on Ebay as well.
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Old 11-04-21, 07:06 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post
Not directly on topic, but related to the farm stuff, in newer cars....or at least audi's it is difficult to replace the battery with out dealer or specialist level code and electronics update tools. That is because you have to buy the correct battery that has a code and the car's software has to have the battery code entered. So what used to be a bone simple DIY, now is a $600 shop bill
I worked in a couple of German car dealerships and the over engineering is absurd. Some newer cars require you to plug in a laptop to check oil level. (Hard pass…)

On topic - I rarely go to the closest LBS but I’m lucky enough to have Universal Cycles very close to me.
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Old 11-04-21, 05:36 PM
  #65  
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https://www.motorbiscuit.com/farmers...eere-tractors/
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Old 11-04-21, 08:18 PM
  #66  
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'LBS'? WTF is that?

Yeah, I know it means 'Local Bike Store/Shop', but there are NONE 'local' to me, meaning within 15 miles. The 'LBS' had NOTHING for bikes older than 5 years old other than limited consumables. Co-ops? 25 miles at least, and even when I went there, they looked at me like I was from Mars when I said 'friction-shift', much less 27" tires.

So I have given up on both, and rely on what I can find online....
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Old 11-04-21, 09:40 PM
  #67  
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Man, shops like that give the rest of us decent, hard-working mechanics a bad name. On the other hand, every customer they turn away is a new regular in the making for us...
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Old 11-05-21, 12:49 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by Cougrrcj View Post
LBS..? I have given up ... and rely on what I can find online.
Not a bad trade-off, since you shop at the biggest bike store with the best prices in the Milky Way*, and it's as close as your front door.

* as far as I know
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Old 11-05-21, 06:23 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa View Post
Not a bad trade-off, since you shop at the biggest bike store with the best prices in the Milky Way*, and it's as close as your front door.

* as far as I know
But how can we deny the LBS the opportunity to be mean to us?
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Old 11-05-21, 07:30 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post
this is where the issue is for farm equipment and "right to repair" often time a local implement repair place or the farmer them selves can do the part replacement or repair, but need dealer to do the software part.

the problem is say if you combine goes down in the middle of wheat harvest, you often don't have a couple of days or even hours to be idle waiting for a software update.

some farmers are just keeping older combines, tractors and the like and repairing
And older combines are going up in price on the resale market as a result.
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Old 11-05-21, 07:38 AM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by tkamd73 View Post
When it comes to servicing or repairing a CV bike, I’ll wager that a lot of us would do a better job, then the offending LBS personal.
Tim
My wife gave me a gift card to a local bike shop, so I took two jobs to them recently that I didn't particularly want to do/couldn't do and they weren't able to do either of them (after trying) and showed they didn't really understand them either (in one case made things much worse), so I think I might not ever end up using that gift card. Maybe, once the shortages are over, I'll go back and stock up on consumables, but I found a mechanic I trust for the few things I can't do and will be using his shop in the future.
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Old 11-05-21, 07:52 AM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by MrK. View Post
Let me preface this by saying I'm 62 years old. I have been working on bikes since the mechanics in the bike shop close to my house would let me hang out when I was 10 and hand them tools and be otherwise annoying. I live in a small East Texas town. Closest bike shop is an hour away. I go there if I am close and need something, otherwise I order parts online. I was in that town today so I stopped in because I needed some cable and housing. I walked in and asked for a mtb brake cable and a full length piece of housing. The guy was pretty condescending telling me every bike is different and he needs to know exactly how long to cut the housing. I told him it's for a rear disc brake and the housing is full length so to cut me 5 feet. That seemed to annoy him so I said just cut it the length of the cable (knowing full well that there would be some left over). He blew and shook his head in frustration and I turned and started looking at the bike tools (ironic) thinking he was getting the housing. I heard him talking on the phone and mentioning housing. A minute later he gets my attention and asks me if I was bringing the bike in for installation. I told him that I would be installing it myself. He then picked up the cable and told me that I cannot install it myself, they had to do the install per company policy. ??? I know this shop changed hands recently and like to give them business when I am in the area but this is the last time I will give them business. Anyone else ever seen anything this absurd from a bike shop? Sorry for the rant.
Seems to be a trend. I had the same sort of experience in a San Antonio motorcycle shop when I asked the parts guy for a hose clamp for an 8mm fuel injection line for my Ducati. Said that I would need to go to Ducati to get it (they sell japanese bikes) and they “couldn’t in good conscience” sell me a part that wasn’t made for my bike. I wondered to myself if he thinks that Ducati, Kawasaki, BMW, etc. make all their fuel injection lines, and the attaching hardware themselves. On my way out the door the sales manager asked me if I found everything I needed. I replied “I won’t be doing any business with your store in the future. You can credit your parts guy for that.” Then I went to the closest O’Reilly store and got a package of them for 7 bucks.
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Old 11-05-21, 07:53 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by RustyJames View Post
I worked in a couple of German car dealerships and the over engineering is absurd. Some newer cars require you to plug in a laptop to check oil level. (Hard pass…)

On topic - I rarely go to the closest LBS but I’m lucky enough to have Universal Cycles very close to me.
Recent porsche macan's don't have a dipstick. There is a screen you can find, if you delve deep enough into the system.
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Old 11-05-21, 08:06 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by Pompiere View Post
My son works for Agco as a factory specialist dealing with combines. For the last several weeks, he has been crisscrossing Illinois and Indiana to keep the machines running. It's the Deere corporate philosophy, not just dealers, that is seeking to prevent farmers from doing their own work. I can understand proprietary software, but just refusing to sell parts is ridiculous. That has driven many farmers to switch to other colors. That is significant, since those brand loyalties have been built up for generations.

He has been carrying his bike in the truck so he can get a ride during the rare down time during harvest season. It is a 1989 Club Fuji, but it has STI levers. He had a bad crash while using the downtube shifters and asked me to change them out. My local shop still sells cables and parts. In fact, last year they had a couple clinics to teach people to rebuild old bikes.

I cruise the local scrapyard every morning for bikes, and recently there have been big green piles of "NOS" farm equipment parts. I'm wondering if there's a "Fine, Fark You , we're not going to hold on to our stock of obsolete parts if our techs cant do the work." happening.
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Old 11-05-21, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by steelbikeguy View Post
yeah, I wonder why Deere allows these sorts of problems to exist with their dealers?
Also, why don't their competitors jump at this opportunity to steal some of that market share? I see J.I. Case and Agco hardware in use, but in pretty small numbers compared to the Deere stuff...



There are definitely some C&V tractors being used too, but tends to be on smaller properties.

The most productive equipment is usually the new stuff with the complicated sensors and actuators and all of that stuff. A lot of this stuff is communicating over networks (probably CAN), with lots of different components being essential for operation. Without the proper service tools, the odds of troubleshooting it properly might be slim. Even then, the diagnostics aren't perfect, and you might have to swap a few parts in and out before finding the real problem.
Admittedly, I'm basing this on my experience with the big yellow machines that I helped design, but I dealt with component manufacturers that were also selling to Deere, so there are known similarities. Plus... Deere was buying some joysticks that I helped develop. We got a cut for each one that Deere bought.

Actually, those joysticks are a good example of the difficulty of repairing the electronics. The stuff was potted and not easy to dig into. I had difficulties when troubleshooting items that came back from the field, and was likely to cause damage just trying to find the original fault. The potting was needed to keep it waterproof, though.

Anyway... it's easy to imagine Shimano or Campy or SRAM ending up like this... having to trash a $500 derailleur or brifter because some solder joint failed deep inside. The level of complexity and features almost guarantees that the part will be incredibly difficult to repair.
I wonder how many other engineers deal with the failings & challenges of high tech during the day, and ride home on a bike with downtube shift levers??

Steve in Peoria (but retired now)
My father was an engineer in fuel system design for big yellow many years ago. He designed the sleeve metering fuel system that was often abused to uprate power. When he was working on design he really wanted to go with electronic control but senior management would not allow it. The more things change....
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