Odd Request: Visual estimate of frame size etc.
 

Hi,

So looking at buying a bike the only problem being seller is not being responsive about frame size or state of the seatpost/stem sticking. For the price it is currently still worth me taking the risk to bid imho so I would like to leverage the experience of you guys to guesstimate the size of this frame. All I have to go on unfortunately are photos. Those with experience guesstimating size from photos, what do you guys think the size of this frame is? I am looking for a 54 and up, how bad do you think 52 or 53 would be? Before you ask, yes I know its not good to buy something that isnt your size. What about the stem/seatpost, does this level of corrosion likely indicate frozen stem/seatpost?

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0919b18e9b.png
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0520981953.png


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9ced937ed3.png
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c365a30104.png

53-54 ish ---- up to 55 at most

Guy marked it as being 50. However from his post history he marks everything even those clearly much larger at 50. I was thinking around the 54 range would be possible too.

Yeah, 53-54cm.

I'd be concerned about frame damage based on the amount of oxidation visible in the aluminum parts. Check for rust if possible.

The selling price of that bike would need to be really cheap to make it worthwhile to clean up everything and make it worth replacing components that might be too far gone.

Its sitting at about 100 USD last I checked. There is frame rust for sure. Do you think its likely that stem or seatpost is stuck based on the corrosion of the parts? Looks like it was left outside for a long time (idk if this contributes to frame/seatpost sticking). Do you have experience with frame rust to this degree? Do you think it can be salvaged? I have no experience with this degree of rust and needing to take the frame to a builder to repair (corrosion I cannot solve without framebuilding knowledge) would be a dealbreaker for me. This is why I am concerned about stuck stems/seatposts because I dont want to deal with having to heat and cool the frame repeatedly if the problem is severe. I suppose im trying to use that as a frame damage marker. If you suggest any other markers to look for that would be appreciated. I understand this is currently terrible condition and am willing to do teardown/rebuild/repaint up to the point where no special "surgeries" need to be done for 100 USD and a nakagawa.

This had me laughing btw :D

LeSexyFishorse , yep, for the right frame it might be worthwhile.

I've generally avoided bikes that needed a lot of cleanup. I would expect the corrosion to cause some sticking -- seat post, stem, bottom bracket.

There are lots of tips for techniques to unstick and clean up bikes like that, both on bike forums and YouTube. Check the channel for RJ The Bike Guy, the prince of low budget DIY but competent overhauls. He talks fast, moves fast... he's the Pulp Fiction "Winston Wolf" of bicycle repair tutorials. Occasionally I flinch watching him and wonder how many thumbnails and toenails he's lost to bike repairs (yeah, sometimes he's barefoot in his videos). But they're really helpful despite the occasional eyebrow-raisers, like using adjustable wrenches for stuff that demands a lot of cranking. But ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

I think bigger. I looked at a few pics of what that search engine shows for "vintage nakagawa bicycle 54" and the actual matches had head tubes that looked shorter than this.

55cm.

Since all of my bikes are between 52 and 56, and I look at them every day, with 54 being just about perfect, I'd say that's a 55 (center to top of top tube), or, if you prefer, 54 center to center. But if it has a low or high bottom bracket, that could change it a little bit. I'm going by the distance between the top tube & the down tube at the back of the head tube.

53-54 C-C I guess.

Depends on whether we are talking C-T or C-C -- makes almost a 1.5cm difference on a standard road frame.

In a classic road bike, and depending on frame geometry "squareness," 55cm C-T is my exact size (the Bianchi, the Carlton, and all 3 Capos), and the one pictured looks pretty good to me.

Thanks for all the estimates guys. I won the bid for 200USD. Will post pics and measurements when it arrives :D

This is a great idea for visual estimates when I cant get any accurate ones. I will do this in the future.

Could be, as the fork does look kinda tall. Would probably push the size up a cm. I'd still guess 54cm...

Actually I think Japanese frames are typically Center to top, so maybe 55 :)

55 center to top would be my guess. Top tube probably 55 center to center.
A screaming deal at $100. but I assume it is an auction.
Some of these go where if there is a flurry of bids at the last few official minutes, the auction extends until there are no more bids for a specific period of time.

Long ago I bid a silly amount on a bike, the auction kept extending, over $1,000 beyond the time close price.
In retrospect, I was pleased that someone else bought the bike.
Many thanks to the proud bidder that just HAD to win.

Quick update photos from the packing and shipping company. Having them properly disassemble for shipping first. Last call for any size guess changes. :) Man I wish i could ride this thing tom. Even thought I know I will need to work on it before I can ride it, the excitement is UNREAL. This will be my first road bike too! There seems to be some corrosion on the right side chainstay however I feel that it could be a rotten chain protector rather than the actual frame going by the perfectly straight lines of corrosion and level of corrosion elsewhere on the frame. Fingers crossed! Does that suntour sprint look like it can be saved or should I start shopping for an old 105?
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a178ff4957.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...155e577fbf.jpg

Evap-o-rust is your friend here, predict you will be pleased with the final result. Provided the stem and seat post aren't too bound up.. Don

Also, my vote is with the 55-56 cm CTT seat tube crowd. Don

She finally arrived and is a 54 C-T! :D Top tube is a 53 C-C surprisingly. Well I guess since these are custom frames they are made to the spec of the owner. Fork rake is as sharp if not ever so slightly slacker than my Bridgestone Keirin bike so I expect she will be quite agile (esp given the Zunow influence on the builder). She needs a lot of love but the frame seems to be intact and chromed! Will be starting a new thread on C&V for the build with pictures later today or tom. Super excited!

Well, congratulations on your new bike. Stop keeping us in suspense. Was the seat post stuck or not? I would have bet on stuck, but would like to know.

Nakagawa makes fabulous bikes. You have a real jewel in the rough there!
I would love to see photos of the various frame details when you get a chance.
Brent

1. Unless you know otherwise, a weathered bike like that will likely have stuck steam and seat posts. As far as secret methods to get them out, everything works sometimes. I had to cut the stem out of my last one. I was able to eventually get seatpost out without cutting it out.

2. how are they going to pack this bike without removing seat post and stem?

You guys are both right, I took the risk (pretty much expected) that the seat post or stem was stuck and that they would be a nightmare to get out. for 200 USD (final bid) I figured it was worth the risk since these bikes opening bid of upwards of 1500 USD here (pristine condition of course). When I did the math, the cost to restore seemed worth it to me. Big surprise was that they were not! seatpost, stem, BB, drivetrain etc., while they all looked horribly corroded (Seat post had caked/jellied grease at the end of it) they functioned 100%. I was scratching my head trying to find something wrong with it. My conclusion is that someone years ago loved this machine and took the time and effort to add grease or do this or that where necessary. Even the wheels were perfectly true. The only issue that made it unridable aside from the tires being too old was that the chainrings had expanded and warped from the corrosion and I had to manually break them off. As for the packing, they did not remove stem or seatpost so it got packed super large and cost more than it should have. Still under the mark tho so I am happy. What I did to offset the cost was buy all the other small parts I wanted for my keirin bike and consolidate them since the box had lots of space.

Here are some pictures. Be warned the images you are about to see may be offensive to some.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...170c0a9f5d.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e2e6ab2bd5.jpg

The frame seems to be chromed, and the blue seems to be some sort of beautiful electric blue that the initial photos didnt do justice. I was thinking of emailing Nakagawa for the pantone so I could have it matched here. The chainstay "rust" that I thought might have been a cover is actually rust on the bare chrome. He didnt put a chainstay cover, it just isnt painted in that section and has exposed chrome. Chainstays also seem to be done using the Pentagla style? I guess this shouldn't be surprising since its a Zunow (taken from De Rosa iirc) that Mr. Nakagawa probably picked up.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2d6a0b0193.jpg

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...abe6b103ac.jpg

Some more photos of the pantographs


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0d7381b4fd.jpg

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...83f269b34b.jpg

There is a Cinelli logo under the rear brake block. Bottom bracket is smooth and unstamped. Nitto handlebars have been internally cabled (looks to be done as a mod).

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c5c8c29297.jpg

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...46e5bb264e.jpg

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ab85354962.jpg


This is what was left of the chainring. It was coming off in pieces. It felt like something that you would see on a wreck dive. Luckily there was a handy youtube video to show me how to remove the bolts that got messed up using a wrench and allen key.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...27a1754462.jpg


So as it stands I have removed the components from the frame and the printing shop has taken photos and measurements of the decals and should give me a sample set next week. I went to 2 shops to see who can match the colors as closely as possible. As for the other components front and rear shifting were crisp and braking performance seems solid. I am currently looking up ways to restore them as they are rusty as all hell. They currently sit in a bath of WD40. Will post a follow up since I am limited to 10 photos.

1. Wheelset Issues

My problem is I do not have Suntour tool to remove the cassette. So I will try to clean off the corrosion while it remains on the wheel using wd40. Any ideas on manual removal without the tool? How likely will this thing need servicing and what kind? As for the wheelset, they seem to be sealed bearings which is prob why they still run very well. Not as nice as my Superbe Pro track ones but still quite good. Is it worth replacing the bearing cartrige or is that unnecessary? Spokes nipples also horribly corroded, fine or risk of snapping them off? I have never rebuilt a wheel but I guess I could learn :). Aside from this I intend to do the WD40 and steel brush dance dance on those hubs to clean them up. Then maybe some sandpaper for polishing.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...854b8cf501.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1c9975bd6f.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0e002ed60f.jpg


2. Brakes Issues

Mostly just rust problems here, I intend to strip them down and soak the rusted parts in white vinegar then wash it off with paint thinner or WD40. Maybe use a wire brush if necessary. If the current WD40 bath its in manages to remove the rust I might skip to just sanding and polishing. If you guys know of a better way to restore these please let me know.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6d95a27d4c.jpg

3. Drivetrain Issues

Shopping around on 2nd hand marketplace here for old 53/42 chainrings to use. Saw a NOS shimano 105 53T chainring with the same 130BCD. Do you think this would work? I would like to to a 55 chainring if possible. Do you forsee any issues with a 55/42 setup? Any suggestions on some good quality modern chainrings that dont cost the price of the bike?

RD has been tricky to find videos or instruction for. So far I am going of RJ the Bike guys vid on Suntour Seven disassembly. Not the same I know. If anyone knows of instructions pref in video format for Suntour Sprint specifically or a previous RD with a closer build please let me know.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7c692da1df.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e1a937fd39.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d60a39d1ec.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...074fdae912.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f2c6764406.jpg

Also, what do you guys do with the little rubber parts here and there? For example the rubber seals on the brakes or the RD guide wheels. Do you replace them or just add some oil and re-use?

So its cleaning and restoring the parts plus deciding on a paint scheme for the next few days until I am satisfied with the decals. Once I have decals I will stage the build by rebuilding with existing components and riding for a few weeks or months to iron out kinks and pay my respects to the original color. Then I plan to teardown the parts, replace what I need to replace and have her re-painted.


Please feel free to provide input if you see anything jump out at you. This is my very first road bike and my very first restore. I am sure there are finer details that I am missing that a more experienced eye can show me.