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67 Carlton, I think, intro and frame questions

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67 Carlton, I think, intro and frame questions

Old 11-09-21, 03:44 PM
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67Carlton 
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67 Carlton, I think, intro and frame questions

Hi all,

I recently picked up what I believe to be a 1967 Raleigh Carlton frame as a project, essentially seeing the lugs and then buying it. Raleigh headbadge with world champion colors, but otherwise with Carlton decals, including downtube, faint Catalina with Olympic rings on the top tube, partial Made in England on the bottom of the seat tube, and the very faint outline of the Carlton "Man on Bike"/Worksop England badge (see h-lloyd-cycles) on the white seat tube panel. Serial W8073 is not definitive as far as I've been able to find online, and apart from an excellent red Carlton 'C' seatpost binder bolt the frame came with no other parts that would help confirm identification. The layout of the paint matches the colors in the 67 Raleigh catalogue on Sheldon Brown's site, but the blue, yellow and white do not match the bike depicted. The catalogue mentions an alternate 'Avion blue, accented with contrasting panels' which leads me to believe this is that frame, although the excellent On the Drops Carlton site labels a very different dark blue without contrasting panels as the Avion blue model, so I am not 100% sure on this.

Sadly, the paint is in pretty rough shape, but the frame is free of cracks or dents and I'm hopeful of resurrecting it as a fun ride. Rather than attempt a complete restoration to the original I'm planning a 700c conversion (sacrilege on this forum?) with the 750 long reach version of the original Weinmann 999s and hopefully some 35s, likely initially as a single speed for simplicity's sake. This will be my first C&Vish project and I have much to learn. I've already been taking advantage of many of the posts on this site, so thanks very much to everyone for that and this is now my first post here.

My first hiccup has been in confirming the seat tube diameter. A few readings with the calipers on different angles could point to either 26.6 or 26.8. I tried a 26.8 post I had lying around and it can be inserted at the top with some effort, but more effort than I typically associate with inserting a seatpost, so I stopped unsure of whether it is accumulated grime of the ages deep in the tube or whether the tube is actually narrower. Before I do something I regret, does anyone know the ST diameter for this frame, or whether Carlton reliably used a certain diameter around that time?

My second question, less pressing from an immediate build-to-ride perspective, is whether anyone might know about the tubing used for this bike. The catalogue states it is 'precision built with Reynolds 531 tubing', but doesn't indicate which tubes that applied to (e.g. main triangle, whole frame, or whole bike). At this point it is curiosity and research fun, but eventually I plan to order new decals (which still won't affect how fun it is to ride, but I'd like it to be correct). Any insights here would be appreciated.

I'll be happy to post more about the project as it progresses if there is interest or answer any questions to the best of my ability. I will also post some photos as soon as I have posted the minimum of 10 post as a new member, and apologies for not being able to share those now.

Many thanks in advance for your insights!
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Old 11-09-21, 04:29 PM
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Carlton Catalina is a predecessor of the Raleigh Super Course. It's built with 531 Plain Gauge tubing in the main triangle. But there could be variations from that point. I actually prefer robust straight gauge tubing than butted in this application. Seat post diameter would be 26.4mm. I have '72 Super Course and it's a joy to ride! This kind of frame is not the best for fixied gear or single speed conversion due to long wheelbase but as a 5/6 speed is a lot of fun!
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Old 11-09-21, 04:36 PM
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Welcome to Club Carlton! I am a very new member, myself -- my Franco-Suisse is my most recent acquisition / project bike. This is the first good English road bike I have ever owned, after a couple of gaspipe converted 3-speeds during my undergrad days at UCLA.

I can confirm the 26.4mm seat post diameter for a plain gauge 531 frame of roughly that vintage -- my 1959 Capo. The Raleigh Super Course remains a highly sought-after frame.

On a frame with a relaxed geometry and long wheelbase, about the only benefit of tube butting is weight, and it does come with increased frame flex. My first Capo, a 1960 Modell Campagnolo with double butted tubing, was pretty whippy/flexy when I loaded the Pletscher mousetrap rack with textbooks. (Older readers will remember those. )
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Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
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Old 11-09-21, 05:04 PM
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I, also, have a late sixties Carlton, a Grand Prix, that bears the Raleigh head badge. These were imported to the North Americian market during the dramatically increased demand for bikes during the "Bike Boom" years (1968 to about 1973). Raleigh had bought Carlton out and rebadged bikes as Raleighs. Have a look at my current project, a nothing special road bike but I am a sucker for chrome plated head tube lugs...




I plan to dump the Simplex transmission...



For a Campagnolo Velox group that I have tucked away...



The other departure from stock component issue will be the saddle. I have two BIM suspended leather saddles that are in reasonable shape, both found at the dump some time ago. Other than that, the bike will be built up as issued except for new paint and art. Brushed on paint job and art which I really can't afford but fun is fun and I do like street restoring old bikes.
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Old 11-09-21, 11:25 PM
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Carlton Catalina was a decent bike.
my parents had a pair from a bit earlier.
my father’s as a 23” frame was 24 lbs- the only thing aluminum were the brakes, levers and stem.
impressive.
yes, long wheelbase.
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Old 11-10-21, 01:16 AM
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Old 11-10-21, 10:44 AM
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Many thanks for the info jimijames, I had seen the 26.4 number in a few places, but was surprised to get a few larger measurement numbers with the caliper. Perhaps there is some slight ovalization of the seat tube? I think I'll start with trying to source a decent 26.4 and work my way up if I have slippage.

"Joy to ride" is exactly what I'm going for with this project, so I'm glad to hear of your experience with your '72. If it goes well, perhaps I'll work my way up to a 5-speed, just more parts to find along the way, though I'm finding that's half the fun. I'd also considered at 3-speed IGH if I can find one.
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Old 11-10-21, 10:52 AM
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Thanks John E, happy to be joining the club, and thanks for the info on the post/tubing. I do agree that the plain gauge is likely to be just the ticket for this type of bike. I'm looking forward to seeing just how relaxed it's going to feel in the end. As I had to find the stem separately (should be arriving at the end of the week!), and will be sourcing replacement stem, bars, it still feels hard to predict.
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Old 11-10-21, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by 67Carlton View Post
Many thanks for the info jimijames, I had seen the 26.4 number in a few places, but was surprised to get a few larger measurement numbers with the caliper. Perhaps there is some slight ovalization of the seat tube? I think I'll start with trying to source a decent 26.4 and work my way up if I have slippage.

"Joy to ride" is exactly what I'm going for with this project, so I'm glad to hear of your experience with your '72. If it goes well, perhaps I'll work my way up to a 5-speed, just more parts to find along the way, though I'm finding that's half the fun. I'd also considered at 3-speed IGH if I can find one.
I have a 73 super course I have converted to three speed and it's a wonderful ride. The best three speed I have ever ridden! Btw, I went 700c with 35mm paselas. A very enjoyable grocery getter with a wald basket and fenders.
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Old 11-10-21, 10:56 AM
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Those lugs are indeed beautiful, randyjawa. I will readily admit that mine are a bit grungier, but they spoke to me and are the reason I snagged the frame, which then led me to learn more about Carlton, rather than the other way around. Funny how these things work!
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Old 11-10-21, 11:01 AM
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Repechage, good to know, it'd be great to keep it fairly light. It's a fairly small frame (53cm CTC, 56cm top tube CTC, 113mm head tube), so I'm somewhat hoping the longer wheelbase will help avoid the toe overlap I have on a couple of my more modern frames.
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Old 11-10-21, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post









a size smaller and that would have been my father's bike. With gumwall tires though.
Way back when my parents bought their pair, the shop owner offered at no cost a selection of tires. My Mom's received the heavier, my father's was fitted with lightweight tires.
Sold by Charlie Harding of C.Harding's Westwood Cyclery.
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Old 11-10-21, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by 67Carlton View Post
Many thanks for the info jimijames, I had seen the 26.4 number in a few places, but was surprised to get a few larger measurement numbers with the caliper. Perhaps there is some slight ovalization of the seat tube? I think I'll start with trying to source a decent 26.4 and work my way up if I have slippage.

...
...it's probably a mistake to assume any seat post diameter for a bicycle that is as well traveled as yours must be. It's had many adventures along it's way to you, and some of them might have included re-reaming the seat tube, in order to correct prior distortion from original construction or while in use.

Were the lug ovalized, the result is invariably that a smaller post is needed to fit past it. But your best bet by far is to take posts in the sizes that are close, and see how well the slip fit works. This is best decided with the interior of the seat tube, and the exterior of the post, both lubricated with some sort of anti-seize. Make sure the seat lug is expanded to where the sides of the slot in the back seem to be parallel.

But your strategy of trying different posts ought to work. If you really can get a 26.8 in there, but it feels tight, I think a 26.4 might be unlikely to be what you will need. You're looking for something that feels like a good, firm lubricated slip fit down in the seat tube, past the lug.
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Old 11-10-21, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
...it's probably a mistake to assume any seat post diameter for a bicycle that is as well traveled as yours must be. It's had many adventures along it's way to you, and some of them might have included re-reaming the seat tube, in order to correct prior distortion from original construction or while in use.

Were the lug ovalized, the result is invariably that a smaller post is needed to fit past it. But your best bet by far is to take posts in the sizes that are close, and see how well the slip fit works. This is best decided with the interior of the seat tube, and the exterior of the post, both lubricated with some sort of anti-seize. Make sure the seat lug is expanded to where the sides of the slot in the back seem to be parallel.

But your strategy of trying different posts ought to work. If you really can get a 26.8 in there, but it feels tight, I think a 26.4 might be unlikely to be what you will need. You're looking for something that feels like a good, firm lubricated slip fit down in the seat tube, past the lug.
I would measure that Catalina for initial guidance on seatpost size.
My dart toss would be 26.6 or 26.8, actually, I would cross reference to Imperial measure too as it is a British bike when they had admitted Metric was on its way but the machinery of production was antique.
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Old 11-11-21, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by 52telecaster View Post
I have a 73 super course I have converted to three speed and it's a wonderful ride. The best three speed I have ever ridden! Btw, I went 700c with 35mm paselas. A very enjoyable grocery getter with a wald basket and fenders.
Thanks @52telecaster. This is quite similar to what I would like to achieve. Out of curiosity, with your 700x35 conversion, did you end up needing long reach (e.g. 750) calipers in the front. I have a Weinmann set that is 750 rear and 610 front that I would like to use if possible. The fork should be here soon for me to find out, but I was planning to stop by the coop today to check on seat post diameter and if they've got a spare 750 it would be good to know whether I should grab it!
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Old 11-11-21, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by repechage View Post
I would measure that Catalina for initial guidance on seatpost size.
My dart toss would be 26.6 or 26.8, actually, I would cross reference to Imperial measure too as it is a British bike when they had admitted Metric was on its way but the machinery of production was antique.
Thanks very much repechage and 3alarmer, I'm off to the coop today to see if they have smaller sizes than the 26.8 I had around that might get that better slip fit.
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Old 11-11-21, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by 67Carlton View Post
Thanks @52telecaster. This is quite similar to what I would like to achieve. Out of curiosity, with your 700x35 conversion, did you end up needing long reach (e.g. 750) calipers in the front. I have a Weinmann set that is 750 rear and 610 front that I would like to use if possible. The fork should be here soon for me to find out, but I was planning to stop by the coop today to check on seat post diameter and if they've got a spare 750 it would be good to know whether I should grab it!
I have a 750 on it.

Can't remember if it was stock with a 750 or I pulled a 610.
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Old 11-11-21, 12:21 PM
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Btw, I recently stumbled on an ad selling old Super Course forks. Thought of sharing if someone is looking for one. https://www.ebay.ca/itm/373669355935...0AAOSwcg1hiG3h
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Old 11-11-21, 05:34 PM
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What a day digging in parts bins can bring. Found a matching Weinmann 750 for the front per 52telecaster 's recommendation, but also found, of all things, a set of the white 'Carlton' hooded Weinmann levers to match. A pair of refurbed Kyokuto Pro Vic II pedals and some NOS MKS toe clips don't match the original, but I'm hoping will suit the build.

Sadly less luck on the seatpost front. The 26.4's slid in a bit too easily and would not clamp securely. The 26.8s wouldn't insert with a reasonable amount of effort. No 26.6's around, but I'll keep my eye out for one. I am increasingly convinced it did start as 26.4, but somewhere in it's life did indeed get reamed or something of the like. There are some scratches around the binder that might suggest someone once did battle with a post and perhaps cleaned it up afterwards.
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Old 11-11-21, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by 67Carlton View Post
Sadly less luck on the seatpost front. The 26.4's slid in a bit too easily and would not clamp securely. The 26.8s wouldn't insert with a reasonable amount of effort. No 26.6's around, but I'll keep my eye out for one.
I have a listing in the forsale forum wherein I was attempting to trade for a 26.4 seatpost of french manufacture, I have three to spare, one is 26.6:

WTT seatposts, have 27.2, 26.8, 26.6, want 26.4
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Old 11-11-21, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by 67Carlton View Post
What a day digging in parts bins can bring. Found a matching Weinmann 750 for the front per 52telecaster 's recommendation, but also found, of all things, a set of the white 'Carlton' hooded Weinmann levers to match. A pair of refurbed Kyokuto Pro Vic II pedals and some NOS MKS toe clips don't match the original, but I'm hoping will suit the build.

Sadly less luck on the seatpost front. The 26.4's slid in a bit too easily and would not clamp securely. The 26.8s wouldn't insert with a reasonable amount of effort. No 26.6's around, but I'll keep my eye out for one. I am increasingly convinced it did start as 26.4, but somewhere in it's life did indeed get reamed or something of the like. There are some scratches around the binder that might suggest someone once did battle with a post and perhaps cleaned it up afterwards.
I routinely cleanup seat tubes and often and up a size too big. Your bike is pretty special but I think a gentle ream to 26.8 wouldn't be a crime.
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Old 11-12-21, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by 67Carlton View Post
Hi all,

I recently picked up what I believe to be a 1967 Raleigh Carlton frame as a project, essentially seeing the lugs and then buying it. Raleigh headbadge with world champion colors, but otherwise with Carlton decals, including downtube, faint Catalina with Olympic rings on the top tube, partial Made in England on the bottom of the seat tube, and the very faint outline of the Carlton "Man on Bike"/Worksop England badge (see h-lloyd-cycles) on the white seat tube panel. Serial W8073 is not definitive as far as I've been able to find online, and apart from an excellent red Carlton 'C' seatpost binder bolt the frame came with no other parts that would help confirm identification. The layout of the paint matches the colors in the 67 Raleigh catalogue on Sheldon Brown's site, but the blue, yellow and white do not match the bike depicted. The catalogue mentions an alternate 'Avion blue, accented with contrasting panels' which leads me to believe this is that frame, although the excellent On the Drops Carlton site labels a very different dark blue without contrasting panels as the Avion blue model, so I am not 100% sure on this.

Sadly, the paint is in pretty rough shape, but the frame is free of cracks or dents and I'm hopeful of resurrecting it as a fun ride. Rather than attempt a complete restoration to the original I'm planning a 700c conversion (sacrilege on this forum?) with the 750 long reach version of the original Weinmann 999s and hopefully some 35s, likely initially as a single speed for simplicity's sake. This will be my first C&Vish project and I have much to learn. I've already been taking advantage of many of the posts on this site, so thanks very much to everyone for that and this is now my first post here.

My first hiccup has been in confirming the seat tube diameter. A few readings with the calipers on different angles could point to either 26.6 or 26.8. I tried a 26.8 post I had lying around and it can be inserted at the top with some effort, but more effort than I typically associate with inserting a seatpost, so I stopped unsure of whether it is accumulated grime of the ages deep in the tube or whether the tube is actually narrower. Before I do something I regret, does anyone know the ST diameter for this frame, or whether Carlton reliably used a certain diameter around that time?

My second question, less pressing from an immediate build-to-ride perspective, is whether anyone might know about the tubing used for this bike. The catalogue states it is 'precision built with Reynolds 531 tubing', but doesn't indicate which tubes that applied to (e.g. main triangle, whole frame, or whole bike). At this point it is curiosity and research fun, but eventually I plan to order new decals (which still won't affect how fun it is to ride, but I'd like it to be correct). Any insights here would be appreciated.

I'll be happy to post more about the project as it progresses if there is interest or answer any questions to the best of my ability. I will also post some photos as soon as I have posted the minimum of 10 post as a new member, and apologies for not being able to share those now.

Many thanks in advance for your insights!

Welcome to the Carlton club !
looking forward to some pics


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Old 11-12-21, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by 1simplexnut View Post
Welcome to the Carlton club !
looking forward to some pics
Thanks 1simplexnut ! That's a beautiful ride! It's essentially the exact paint color scheme of my frame with the placement of the same Team Blue, Yellow and White panels, but clearly looks to my untrained eye to be a higher level bike. Mine lacks the chrome stays and lugs, and has wraparound seat stays rather than that nice Victor seat cluster, stamped dropouts rather than the Zeus, etc. Perhaps it was a Catalina level tribute to the Professional?

Am I right in thinking from the photos that you stripped (or blasted?) the frame and repainted? What was that like? I'd love to find that original team blue!

Will post some pics as soon as I shed my 'newbie' posting limits! Not far off now :-)
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Old 11-12-21, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by 52telecaster View Post
I routinely cleanup seat tubes and often and up a size too big. Your bike is pretty special but I think a gentle ream to 26.8 wouldn't be a crime.
Thanks 52telecaster , if my leads on a 26.6 don't turn up something suitable I may need to consider that. I don't have a bore, do you think a hanger, steel wool/scotch pad and drill do the trick?
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Old 11-12-21, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by oneclick View Post
I have a listing in the forsale forum wherein I was attempting to trade for a 26.4 seatpost of french manufacture, I have three to spare, one is 26.6:

WTT seatposts, have 27.2, 26.8, 26.6, want 26.4
Thanks oneclick , unfortunately I don't have a post to trade. Best of luck with your search!
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