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Wheel restoration Old Spokes or New?

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Wheel restoration Old Spokes or New?

Old 12-17-21, 08:40 AM
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Wheel restoration Old Spokes or New?

Working on bringing back to life my 1981 Univega Specialissima Wheel Set. The Araya wheels are true and straight, but the spokes have some rust and are crusty. Looking for advice on replacing the spokes or cleaning them up? For now it is just a labor of love trying to bring this back to it's former glory. Original SunShine Gyromaster hubs should clean up nicely.
Thoughts?

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Old 12-17-21, 08:43 AM
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Replace- the plating is very thin. You Could clean them up and just set yourself up for future fast deterioration.

with the labor involved, but fresh.
and note the lengths, spokes should fill the nipple and not extend, drive side should be 1-2 mm shorter than the other.

lazy mechanics way is to unwind the off drive side 1/2 turn at a time till the wheel is loose, save a representative spoke from each side then cut them out.

butcher was is just snip snip snip.

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Old 12-17-21, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by repechage View Post
Replace- the plating is very thin. You Could clean them up and just set yourself up for future fast deterioration.

with the labor involved, but fresh.
and note the lengths, spokes should fill the nipple and not extend, drive side should be 1-2 mm shorter than the other.

lazy mechanics way is to unwind the off drive side 1/2 turn at a time till the wheel is loose, save a representative spoke from each side then cut them out.

butcher was is just snip snip snip.
Thanks for the advise - I have to admit that I am a bit short on bicycle wheel building. So I guess that my approach would be to remove old and replace with new one at a time? The Butcher way sounds fun!
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Old 12-17-21, 09:08 AM
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I would definitely replace with double-butted stainless spokes.
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Old 12-17-21, 10:12 AM
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If you have a spare front fork to help with the wheel trueing, I vote replace.

The wheelbuilding-trueing process is very well documented, requiring little to get started besides patience and focus. I enjoy it, some do not.

The hubs and rims will clean up much faster/better with the old spokes removed.
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Old 12-17-21, 10:31 AM
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Flag one spoke with tape, to the left of the valve hole. Do the front wheel first..
Photograph it. then get to work.
This is a four cross wheel, a bit more thinking than a 3X to keep everything in the correct orientation.
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Old 12-17-21, 10:44 AM
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If you decide to replace them one at a time, take the advise of repechage above and loosen them 1/2 turn at a time until they are slack before removing and replacing any. Then tighten and true up the wheel after all the spokes have been replaced. Given the corrosion on those spokes you may find that some nipples are seized to the spokes and will not turn without a good penetrating oil soak.
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Old 12-17-21, 11:19 AM
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YEP. While you are planning, put a drop of Liquid Wrench or similar at both sides of the nipple spoke interface so it can start working. A good investment and Winter reading: https://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php
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Old 12-17-21, 12:30 PM
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Two web resources

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair...-build-a-wheel
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Old 12-17-21, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by repechage View Post
Flag one spoke with tape, to the left of the valve hole. Do the front wheel first..
Photograph it. then get to work.
This is a four cross wheel, a bit more thinking than a 3X to keep everything in the correct orientation.
In this case, I concur. For a more experienced wheel builder, I suggest considering relacing with shorter spokes in a 3X pattern.
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Old 12-17-21, 12:51 PM
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I guess I don't agree. I wouldn't change the spokes.

I would ride this wheelset into the ground, abuse it and destroy it, meanwhile save your money for a set of nice touring wheels, 700c with a freehub in back and a dynamo hub in front. The old cantilever-braked Univegas are fine to put 700c wheels on, even if they came with 27" originally. You'll have to adjust the brakes somewhat, and you'll have to spread your frame to accept the wider rear wheel. Easy. After you change to 700c, you'll have more room for nice wide supple tires and many more tire options with 700c. You can have 8, 9, or even 10 gears in back. The whole setup will likely be lighter than what you have. Plus, no more breaking axles 'cause you will be using a cassette hub.
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Old 12-17-21, 01:24 PM
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I would hesitate to suggest moving from 27” to 700c with cantilevers will work- it can but what will happen is the radius the brake pad swings is 4 mm shorter- some cantilevers will allow that well enough, but not all.
test, don’t guess.
I have seen situations where the pad makes contact but after some wear- accelerated due to the shorter arc, the pad can dive inside the rim diameter and even lock, not retracting.

the other benefits of a freehub are sound, and greater tire selection.

my Paramount tandem is one of those bikes where, moving to 700c would be a no go.
pivots are too far apart left to right also.
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Old 12-17-21, 03:15 PM
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Hey All - I appreciate all the comments on this question.
Just a few things: This is a 27" wheel with 36 spokes on a 3 cross pattern. The length of the spokes is 310 and right now availability (Yes Stainless Double Butted) is not so good like nothing out there. The '81 Univega Specialissima came with Dia-Compe Grand Compe Center Pull (not canitlever) - Beautiful looking gems if I might add. So I might take a trip to the bike shop to see what they have available. Should you have any suggestions for new spokes that would be available I would be all ears. I might need to move onto another area to work on while the search for spokes continues.
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Old 12-17-21, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by tjfastback66 View Post
Hey All - I appreciate all the comments on this question.
Just a few things: This is a 27" wheel with 36 spokes on a 3 cross pattern. The length of the spokes is 310 and right now availability (Yes Stainless Double Butted) is not so good like nothing out there. The '81 Univega Specialissima came with Dia-Compe Grand Compe Center Pull (not canitlever) - Beautiful looking gems if I might add. So I might take a trip to the bike shop to see what they have available. Should you have any suggestions for new spokes that would be available I would be all ears. I might need to move onto another area to work on while the search for spokes continues.
In that case, I'd second @scarlson's suggestion to just clean up what you have and keep riding them for now. Q-Tips with solvent are good for cleaning out those little nooks around the spoke elbows. I'd oil and loosen each nipple slightly (to make sure they all break free and move without drama), then give the wheels a good true, trying to even out tensions wherever possible, then give them a really vigorous stress-relieving job. That is a good way to find out if any marginal spokes were about ready to break.
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Old 12-17-21, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
In that case, I'd second @scarlson's suggestion to just clean up what you have and keep riding them for now. Q-Tips with solvent are good for cleaning out those little nooks around the spoke elbows. I'd oil and loosen each nipple slightly (to make sure they all break free and move without drama), then give the wheels a good true, trying to even out tensions wherever possible, then give them a really vigorous stress-relieving job. That is a good way to find out if any marginal spokes were about ready to break.
Great Idea and that is the path I first started. I do stand corrected the spoke length is actually 306mm and looks like they may become available in February 2022. With snow on the ground - no way to ride this classic until spring anyway. Looking at DT Swiss Competition double butted silver spokes. They should do the trick someday down the road.

Merry Christmas and thanks for sharing your comments!
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Old 12-17-21, 05:47 PM
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A good cleanup & oil is always a good thing!
On the 3 vs 4 cross, when the spoke cross at the hub, even if the cross is hidden by the hub, it counts as 1 cross.
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Old 12-17-21, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by BTinNYC View Post
A good cleanup & oil is always a good thing!
On the 3 vs 4 cross, when the spoke cross at the hub, even if the cross is hidden by the hub, it counts as 1 cross.
Yep - I stand corrected 4 cross.
Thank You!
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Old 12-17-21, 06:07 PM
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When using plated spokes again, I clean them with aluminum foil first. This does a pretty good job of cleaning and smoothing. old spokes. I have used used stainless spokes many times and had very good results. I recommend stainless steel if one has access to them...

As found on late sixties Torpado plated spokes...


Cleaned up with foil and then waxed...
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Old 12-17-21, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by tjfastback66 View Post
Thanks for the advise - I have to admit that I am a bit short on bicycle wheel building. So I guess that my approach would be to remove old and replace with new one at a time? The Butcher way sounds fun!
If you're gonna play the Butcher, be sure to unthread the freewheel before going happy with the diagonal cutters or nippers.
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Old 12-17-21, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by repechage View Post
Replace- the plating is very thin. You Could clean them up and just set yourself up for future fast deterioration.

with the labor involved, but fresh.
and note the lengths, spokes should fill the nipple and not extend, drive side should be 1-2 mm shorter than the other.

lazy mechanics way is to unwind the off drive side 1/2 turn at a time till the wheel is loose, save a representative spoke from each side then cut them out.

butcher was is just snip snip snip.
I have restored bikes 60 years old which had perfectly good spokes.
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Old 12-17-21, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by martl View Post
I have restored bikes 60 years old which had perfectly good spokes.
that was not the question- it was stated;

…” spokes have some rust and are crusty. Looking for advice on replacing the spokes or cleaning them up?”

there was only one close up image of a rear hub and immediately adjacent spokes. Taking the wheel apart and cleaning the plated spokes is a lot of work. I cannot make an assumption about the original poster’s full assessment.
cleaning the rust and “crust” will most likely require abrasion, brass wool, Astonish, no matter, the chances of removing the plating is reasonably high. The question was not are they going to structurally fail, but how to clean them up. With your description of vast experience, be helpful and describe how to go about cleaning the wheel for avoiding accelerated oxidization going forward.
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Old 12-17-21, 08:21 PM
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I have two thoughts:

1. They don't look that bad so my tendency would be to just clean them up, with evaporust, aluminum foil, a bit of metal polish, etc.

2. If you really want to replace them, I would suggest that you go with slightly smaller diameter spokes on the non-drive-side of the rear wheel. This results in less of a tension imbalance than using the same spokes on each side and therefore a stronger wheel. For example, I typically use Sapim Lasers on the non-drive-side and Sapim Race spokes on the drive-side. Bear in mind that both of these spoke types are very lightweight and therefore a little tricky to true, but they worked for me. Even if using heavier spokes, I would probably use asymmetrical spoke gauges on the rear.
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Old 12-17-21, 08:31 PM
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My two cents: New spokes look awfully nice, double butted or not and the confidence you'd gain in rebuilding a wheel is immeasurable.
For a easy fix, If they clean up with no rust then your done. Rust penetrats sometimes work or aluminum foil or steel wool. If you have to go further I'd seriously go with new spokes.
Beyond that is medium sandpaper and silver paint.

There's plenty of material on the "how to" but I'd advise starting fresh without the crutch of changing over one spoke at a time. It'll actually slow you down and you'll be surprised how easy it is. If you have to back up at any point that's a good thing because you will have learned something.
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Old 12-18-21, 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by repechage View Post
that was not the question- it was stated;

…” spokes have some rust and are crusty. Looking for advice on replacing the spokes or cleaning them up?”

there was only one close up image of a rear hub and immediately adjacent spokes. Taking the wheel apart and cleaning the plated spokes is a lot of work. I cannot make an assumption about the original poster’s full assessment.
cleaning the rust and “crust” will most likely require abrasion, brass wool, Astonish, no matter, the chances of removing the plating is reasonably high. The question was not are they going to structurally fail, but how to clean them up. With your description of vast experience, be helpful and describe how to go about cleaning the wheel for avoiding accelerated oxidization going forward.
​​​​​​One sometimes hears the opinion that spokes are a consumable and should be replaced just to be safe. This is not automatically true.
spokes that are chrome plated, though, are of a low quality and while they sometimes can be buffed I would always replace them with stainless ones.
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Old 12-18-21, 07:46 AM
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Ok, I’ve started working on the wheels of these ExcelToo/steel rim wheels on my friends’ Witcombs. I need to despoke to install the Araya rims and to clean the hubs. I’ve regreased the fronts, but they’re still not as I would like. If I can’t sort and smooth the hubs, it’s replacement wheel time. For the reassembly I’ll clean and reuse the spokes (largely because the nipples are all in great condition) with rim washers, the Araya rims, and wired tires. I’ll be able to at least clean and inspect the bearings and see if I can restore them or must replace them.

This thread is helping me assess the safety of the spokes, in this incremental approach to restoration.

Last edited by Road Fan; 12-19-21 at 08:26 AM.
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