Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Testing an S/A Dyno Hub

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Testing an S/A Dyno Hub

Old 01-11-22, 01:31 PM
  #1  
dweenk 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
dweenk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 3,781

Bikes: 1972 Fuji S-10-S,1970 Raleigh Sports, and more

Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 819 Post(s)
Liked 212 Times in 153 Posts
Testing an S/A Dyno Hub

I have an opportunity to buy a bike with the affore mentioned hub. There is no wiring or light. The wheel seems to be a repalcement. So my question is how do I test the hubs output?
Is a VOM set to AC voltage adequate, and what reading should I expect to see with a vigorous spin of the wheel?
__________________
"The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain
dweenk is offline  
Old 01-11-22, 01:38 PM
  #2  
scarlson 
Senior Member
 
scarlson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Medford MA
Posts: 1,575

Bikes: Ron Cooper touring, 1959 Jack Taylor 650b ladyback touring tandem, Vitus 979, Joe Bell painted Claud Butler Dalesman, Colin Laing curved tube tandem, heavily-Dilberted 1982 Trek 6xx, René Herse tandem

Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 726 Post(s)
Liked 914 Times in 505 Posts
The Old Way was to put a screwdriver across the terminals to short them, give the wheel a vigorous spin, and pull the screwdriver blade a minuscule amount away from one terminal. You should see and/or hear a tiny spark jump the gap. Might take a few tries if it's your first time. Can also do it with a wire if you have one handy. Also, when it's shorted, you will notice more drag and vibration via the axle if you don't have it securely clamped in the dropouts.

It is not harmful to short a dynamo like this. Well, it might heat up if you shorted it and then went on a ride for half an hour.. They are naturally current-limited by the gauge of wire used in the windings, so no damage will occur, unlike when you short a battery (which will try to supply all the amps you can draw from it, right up until the battery explodes).

Digital voltmeters tend to be unreliable for this sort of thing. The voltage and frequency will be varying all over the place as the speed of the wheel changes, and it can be hard for a digital meter to follow. I prefer an analog meter if I'm measuring a dynamo, but in practice I rarely have needed to.
__________________
Owner & co-founder, Cycles René Hubris. Unfortunately attaching questionable braze-ons to perfectly good frames since about 2015. With style.
scarlson is offline  
Likes For scarlson:
Old 01-11-22, 02:05 PM
  #3  
steelbikeguy
Senior Member
 
steelbikeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 2,957
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1111 Post(s)
Liked 1,215 Times in 621 Posts
Originally Posted by dweenk View Post
I have an opportunity to buy a bike with the affore mentioned hub. There is no wiring or light. The wheel seems to be a repalcement. So my question is how do I test the hubs output?
Is a VOM set to AC voltage adequate, and what reading should I expect to see with a vigorous spin of the wheel?
I have a digital meter that can measure current, and with that, the most meaningful measurement would be to measure the current out of the dynamo. With a modern dynamo, it should be producing 400mA or more at decent speeds. I know that the SA dynohub produces less power, so maybe 250mA to 300mA?? edit: obviously, this would be a measure of AC current. If the meter is set up to measure DC current, the reading will be zero.

With a literal volt-ohm meter, then you can always check the open-circuit voltage. The problem is that this voltage is mostly proportional to the wheel speed, so the value could be anything. If you can connect a resistor that is close to 12 ohms to the terminals, then an output voltage of 3VAC or more is probably a good sign (but again, I'm not certain exactly what the output of these is).

You could also use the ohm-meter to make sure that there isn't a break in the dynamo's wiring.

The problem with the SA dynohub that I've heard of is demagnetized magnets. This will result in reduced power output. To measure this, you'd need to either measure output current or else connect a known suitable resistor and measure the voltage across the resistor.

The alternative to using a meter would be to short out the dynamo terminals. If it is working properly, it should produce a significant drag when spinning. This is very obvious with the Schmidts that I own. Not sure how obvious it would be with the dynohub, but you should notice a difference between the open-circuit and short-circuit drag.

Steve in Peoria
steelbikeguy is offline  
Old 01-11-22, 04:28 PM
  #4  
dweenk 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
dweenk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 3,781

Bikes: 1972 Fuji S-10-S,1970 Raleigh Sports, and more

Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 819 Post(s)
Liked 212 Times in 153 Posts
Originally Posted by steelbikeguy View Post
I have a digital meter that can measure current, and with that, the most meaningful measurement would be to measure the current out of the dynamo. With a modern dynamo, it should be producing 400mA or more at decent speeds. I know that the SA dynohub produces less power, so maybe 250mA to 300mA?? edit: obviously, this would be a measure of AC current. If the meter is set up to measure DC current, the reading will be zero.

With a literal volt-ohm meter, then you can always check the open-circuit voltage. The problem is that this voltage is mostly proportional to the wheel speed, so the value could be anything. If you can connect a resistor that is close to 12 ohms to the terminals, then an output voltage of 3VAC or more is probably a good sign (but again, I'm not certain exactly what the output of these is).

You could also use the ohm-meter to make sure that there isn't a break in the dynamo's wiring.

The problem with the SA dynohub that I've heard of is demagnetized magnets. This will result in reduced power output. To measure this, you'd need to either measure output current or else connect a known suitable resistor and measure the voltage across the resistor.

The alternative to using a meter would be to short out the dynamo terminals. If it is working properly, it should produce a significant drag when spinning. This is very obvious with the Schmidts that I own. Not sure how obvious it would be with the dynohub, but you should notice a difference between the open-circuit and short-circuit drag.

Steve in Peoria
So a simple bulb would be sufficient to verify the dynohubs operation? I can certainly do that with a front or rear light that I have on hand. I have some aligator clips that will make it easy and quick.
__________________
"The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain
dweenk is offline  
Likes For dweenk:
Old 01-11-22, 04:39 PM
  #5  
steelbikeguy
Senior Member
 
steelbikeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 2,957
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1111 Post(s)
Liked 1,215 Times in 621 Posts
Originally Posted by dweenk View Post
So a simple bulb would be sufficient to verify the dynohubs operation? I can certainly do that with a front or rear light that I have on hand. I have some aligator clips that will make it easy and quick.
a simple bulb could work if it is the right bulb. I'm not sure how easy it is to find the right bulb. Basically, it should be rated for the voltage and current that the dynamo produces.
Even with a bulb, it would be good to measure the voltage across the bulb, to know if the dynamo output is up to spec. Of course, you'd have to know the spec... and I haven't looked it up.
Isn't the dynamo output rated at 1.8 watts or something? I don't know if that is 6v at 0.3A or some other combination of voltage and current.

Steve in Peoria
steelbikeguy is offline  
Old 01-11-22, 05:04 PM
  #6  
bulgie 
blahblahblah chrome moly
 
bulgie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 680
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 381 Post(s)
Liked 572 Times in 294 Posts
Originally Posted by steelbikeguy View Post
a simple bulb could work if it is the right bulb. I'm not sure how easy it is to find the right bulb. Basically, it should be rated for the voltage and current that the dynamo produces.
Even with a bulb, it would be good to measure the voltage across the bulb, to know if the dynamo output is up to spec. Of course, you'd have to know the spec... and I haven't looked it up.
Isn't the dynamo output rated at 1.8 watts or something? I don't know if that is 6v at 0.3A or some other combination of voltage and current.

Steve in Peoria
I use a B&M IQ-X on mine, and it gives a lot of light. It's probably not as bright as the same lamp on a modern hub, but without doing a side-by-side comparison, I'm not sure if I can tell the difference. I was pleasantly surprised by how bright it is, very usable, better than a modern dynamo with an incandescent bulb.

I've used Dyno-Hubs with the original correct incandescent, and the light is somewhere in the paltry to pitiful range.

Mark B
bulgie is offline  
Old 01-11-22, 05:31 PM
  #7  
steelbikeguy
Senior Member
 
steelbikeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 2,957
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1111 Post(s)
Liked 1,215 Times in 621 Posts
Originally Posted by bulgie View Post
I use a B&M IQ-X on mine, and it gives a lot of light. It's probably not as bright as the same lamp on a modern hub, but without doing a side-by-side comparison, I'm not sure if I can tell the difference. I was pleasantly surprised by how bright it is, very usable, better than a modern dynamo with an incandescent bulb.

I've used Dyno-Hubs with the original correct incandescent, and the light is somewhere in the paltry to pitiful range.

Mark B
I've heard favorable comments about using modern LED headlights with dynohubs from other sources too. It also suggests that the dynamo is producing 6v with that load. A further reading of Sheldon's (and John Allen's) info on the dynohub does specifically state that it is intended to be a 6v dynamo.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/dynohubs.html

I fully agree that dynamos with incandescent bulbs produces a barely tolerable stream of photons.
How did we ever survive? Of course, I do recall augmenting my little Jos block dynamo with a Cateye Micro II light. Between the two of them, I managed to see most potholes and roadkill.

Steve in Peoria
steelbikeguy is offline  
Old 01-11-22, 06:23 PM
  #8  
JulesCW
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Upper third of the central USA
Posts: 109

Bikes: N+1

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Liked 77 Times in 45 Posts
Originally Posted by steelbikeguy View Post
I've heard favorable comments about using modern LED headlights with dynohubs from other sources too. It also suggests that the dynamo is producing 6v with that load. A further reading of Sheldon's (and John Allen's) info on the dynohub does specifically state that it is intended to be a 6v dynamo.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/dynohubs.html

I fully agree that dynamos with incandescent bulbs produces a barely tolerable stream of photons.
How did we ever survive? Of course, I do recall augmenting my little Jos block dynamo with a Cateye Micro II light. Between the two of them, I managed to see most potholes and roadkill.

Steve in Peoria

Surely you're not implying that the depiction of the amount of light cast by vintage dynamos and bulbs in these vintage advertisements is hyperbolic?



JulesCW is offline  
Likes For JulesCW:
Old 01-11-22, 06:37 PM
  #9  
steelbikeguy
Senior Member
 
steelbikeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 2,957
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1111 Post(s)
Liked 1,215 Times in 621 Posts
Originally Posted by JulesCW View Post
Surely you're not implying that the depiction of the amount of light cast by vintage dynamos and bulbs in these vintage advertisements is hyperbolic?
I'm pretty sure that if I look up the word "advertisement" in a thesaurus, it will list "hyperbolic" as a synonym.

But... to some degree, if you are accustomed to feeble headlights, you'll be happy with something slightly less feeble. Another factor is the ambient light environment. If you are having to deal with the feeble headlights of cars with 6v electrical systems, these vintage lights might not be that bad. By comparison, I see so many modern cars with really bright headlights that are blinding. There's also the tendency of people to turn on their fog lights as a regular driving light. Terrible.

Even with my feeble Jos block dynamo, it wasn't bad on really dark roads. Once your eyes adapt to the dark, not that much light is needed.

Steve in Peoria
steelbikeguy is offline  
Likes For steelbikeguy:
Old 01-11-22, 06:42 PM
  #10  
tcs
Palmer
 
tcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 6,787

Bikes: 1980 Mike Melton, 1982 Stumpjumper, 1982 Santana, 1984 Alex Moulton AM, 2008 BikeFriday tikit T-♾, 2010 Dawes Briercliffe, 2017 Dahon Curl i8, 2019 Surly ˝DT14, 2021 Motobecane Turino 1x12

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 910 Post(s)
Liked 527 Times in 316 Posts
Originally Posted by dweenk View Post
So my question is how do I test the hubs output?
Ah, you, my friend, need a Dynohub™️ Tester!











Manual @ https://www.sturmey-archerheritage.co.../view-1013.pdf

Last edited by tcs; 01-11-22 at 06:47 PM.
tcs is offline  
Old 01-11-22, 07:24 PM
  #11  
tcs
Palmer
 
tcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 6,787

Bikes: 1980 Mike Melton, 1982 Stumpjumper, 1982 Santana, 1984 Alex Moulton AM, 2008 BikeFriday tikit T-♾, 2010 Dawes Briercliffe, 2017 Dahon Curl i8, 2019 Surly ˝DT14, 2021 Motobecane Turino 1x12

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 910 Post(s)
Liked 527 Times in 316 Posts
Originally Posted by steelbikeguy View Post
Isn't the dynamo output rated at 1.8 watts or something?
6V @ 2W until the early 1970s, 1.8W afterwards. There are questions as to whether this was an actual down-rating or just a change in test method.

Sturmey-Archer developed an updated and improved 3W Dynohub in the late 70s/early 80s, called the XAG. This was shown at cycle trade shows in 1982 to positive reviews but - if you know anything about the history of Sturmey, you know where this is headed - they never put it in production!

Fun fact: the GH6 was introduced in 1946, replacing pre-war 12V and 8V models. Despite post-war shortages and supply chain disruptions, by early 1951 the factory was making 12,000 a week!

Last edited by tcs; 01-14-22 at 12:21 PM.
tcs is offline  
Likes For tcs:
Old 01-11-22, 07:28 PM
  #12  
tcs
Palmer
 
tcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 6,787

Bikes: 1980 Mike Melton, 1982 Stumpjumper, 1982 Santana, 1984 Alex Moulton AM, 2008 BikeFriday tikit T-♾, 2010 Dawes Briercliffe, 2017 Dahon Curl i8, 2019 Surly ˝DT14, 2021 Motobecane Turino 1x12

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 910 Post(s)
Liked 527 Times in 316 Posts
Originally Posted by steelbikeguy View Post
But... to some degree, if you are accustomed to feeble headlights, you'll be happy with something slightly less feeble. Another factor is the ambient light environment. If you are having to deal with the feeble headlights of cars with 6v electrical systems, these vintage lights might not be that bad.
Plenty bright during the Blitz!
tcs is offline  
Likes For tcs:
Old 01-12-22, 04:37 AM
  #13  
gilesa
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 84
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 11 Times in 8 Posts
Ass suggested above, there should be 6V of output with a 20 ohm resistor connected, or a little over 300mA short-circuit current. It is hard to get a good measurement while spinning by hand. One method I have used is to use the chuck of a variable-speed electric drill as a roller on the tyre. For comparison, I measured internal resistance at 6.5 ohms and inductance 86-108mH, varying with wheel position.
gilesa is offline  
Old 01-12-22, 07:30 AM
  #14  
markk900
Senior Member
 
markk900's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Ontario
Posts: 2,267
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 330 Post(s)
Liked 244 Times in 145 Posts
Originally Posted by JulesCW View Post
Surely you're not implying that the depiction of the amount of light cast by vintage dynamos and bulbs in these vintage advertisements is hyperbolic?


You forgot the most important one:


markk900 is offline  
Likes For markk900:
Old 01-12-22, 10:48 AM
  #15  
dweenk 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
dweenk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 3,781

Bikes: 1972 Fuji S-10-S,1970 Raleigh Sports, and more

Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 819 Post(s)
Liked 212 Times in 153 Posts
Thanks all. I'm going to do some reading of St. Sheldon and decide whether or not to buy the bike.
__________________
"The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain
dweenk is offline  
Old 01-12-22, 11:42 AM
  #16  
Road Fan
Senior Member
 
Road Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 15,797

Bikes: 1980 Masi, 1984 Mondonico, 1984 Trek 610, 1980 Woodrup Giro, 2005 Mondonico Futura Leggera ELOS, 1967 PX10E, 1971 Peugeot UO-8

Mentioned: 43 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1419 Post(s)
Liked 344 Times in 269 Posts
I agree with a lot of what has been said here. One thing that I think is needed is to emphasize that if you only want to check that the generator is functioning, the VOM needle movement will show that it is really producing voltage, even if the wheel speed is not steady. If you can spin the wheel steadily you should get an AC signal which will look steady on the VOM. Because the meter is mechanical, its response is far slower than for an electronic AC voltmeter. If you look at the signal with an oscilloscope, it should look like a clean sine wave or one with some kind of distortion or spiking at the peaks, due to magnetic hysteresis and saturation. If there's too much weirdness the generator might be no good, or have the magnets out of place in ways that might be hard to understand without a good set of blueprints or CAD.
Road Fan is offline  
Old 01-12-22, 11:53 AM
  #17  
Road Fan
Senior Member
 
Road Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 15,797

Bikes: 1980 Masi, 1984 Mondonico, 1984 Trek 610, 1980 Woodrup Giro, 2005 Mondonico Futura Leggera ELOS, 1967 PX10E, 1971 Peugeot UO-8

Mentioned: 43 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1419 Post(s)
Liked 344 Times in 269 Posts
Originally Posted by gilesa View Post
Ass suggested above, there should be 6V of output with a 20 ohm resistor connected, or a little over 300mA short-circuit current. It is hard to get a good measurement while spinning by hand. One method I have used is to use the chuck of a variable-speed electric drill as a roller on the tyre. For comparison, I measured internal resistance at 6.5 ohms and inductance 86-108mH, varying with wheel position.
It's interesting to see your inductance measurement, and that it varies with position. This must be due to the magnetic circuits changing their reluctances as the stator and rotor pole pieces come into and out of alignment. I once designed a driver for an electronic for Ford, and the motor was based expressly on that principle of varying reluctance. Tough to control, but very efficient. I've measured motors in EE labs on special fixtures (not to mention an impedance bridge!), but I really can't attack hub or bottle dynos very well, just at home.
Road Fan is offline  
Old 01-13-22, 11:29 AM
  #18  
gilesa
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 84
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 11 Times in 8 Posts
To confirm that, the inductance is at a minimum in a stable position of the wheel, where magnet and stator poles should be aligned and the flux path has maximum length. (I had to look up the definition of reluctance!) That was an at-home measurement: wall socket, transformer, resistor, multimeter and Pythagoras. So probably not very accurate.
gilesa is offline  
Old 01-13-22, 07:05 PM
  #19  
Greg R
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Lebanon, Oregon
Posts: 113
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked 38 Times in 26 Posts
Is a VOM set to AC voltage adequate,
Quick and short, YES. Spinning as fast as you can you should achieve 5-6 volts. Make sure the output nuts are tight whether on a forked connector or just using clips, the nuts complete the circuit, and your readings will be off if they are loose.

You can also test for continuity before the test. The magnets should almost be able to be felt as you gently rotate the wheel, not much but noticeable. That's a good sign right there. Continuity, some magnetism, good signs it's a keeper.

Not many bulbs on the market that are compatible with it's low output. For mine it runs the rear light (cool factor), and I use a separate rechargeable LED for the front.

Last edited by Greg R; 01-13-22 at 07:13 PM.
Greg R is offline  
Old 01-14-22, 12:16 PM
  #20  
tcs
Palmer
 
tcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 6,787

Bikes: 1980 Mike Melton, 1982 Stumpjumper, 1982 Santana, 1984 Alex Moulton AM, 2008 BikeFriday tikit T-♾, 2010 Dawes Briercliffe, 2017 Dahon Curl i8, 2019 Surly ˝DT14, 2021 Motobecane Turino 1x12

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 910 Post(s)
Liked 527 Times in 316 Posts
Originally Posted by Greg R View Post
Not many bulbs on the market that are compatible with its low output.
Right, incandescent, but the Dynohub™️ lights up modern LED headlamps just fine. I've got mine wired to a B&M OneFive, and Bulgie upthread reported energizing the uber photon cannon IQ-X.

Last edited by tcs; 01-14-22 at 01:00 PM.
tcs is offline  
Old 01-14-22, 12:42 PM
  #21  
Greg R
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Lebanon, Oregon
Posts: 113
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked 38 Times in 26 Posts
wired to a B&M OneFive
Those look like fantastic lights. I seriously considered them months ago. But with the money I already spent on some Bontrager rechargeables, I opted to just keeping the Dynohub running the rear light for now.
Greg R is offline  
Likes For Greg R:
Old 01-14-22, 12:55 PM
  #22  
tcs
Palmer
 
tcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 6,787

Bikes: 1980 Mike Melton, 1982 Stumpjumper, 1982 Santana, 1984 Alex Moulton AM, 2008 BikeFriday tikit T-♾, 2010 Dawes Briercliffe, 2017 Dahon Curl i8, 2019 Surly ˝DT14, 2021 Motobecane Turino 1x12

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 910 Post(s)
Liked 527 Times in 316 Posts
So long as we have a Dynohub™️ thread, let's talk about...threads!

The GH6 (front hub!) Dynohub axle is a 3/8x26tpi. The threads on the terminals are 2BA, a British spark plug thread size.




Now, you're probably asking yourself, 'Self, why is his axle so long?' Well, I'll tell you. Some of the GH6 Dynohubs were built for the old roadster bike front OLD of 90mm. Yeah, that's not long enough to fit in a standard 100mm OLD fork. So I replaced the axle in this NOS Dynohub with a generic one - but, and it's a big but, on a Dynohub axle, one of the cones screws down against a stop. On the generic replacement axle I simulated this with some blue Locktite.

Last edited by tcs; 01-14-22 at 01:58 PM.
tcs is offline  
Likes For tcs:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.