Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Help w/ newly installed BB + cups on track bike

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Help w/ newly installed BB + cups on track bike

Old 01-23-22, 07:44 PM
  #1  
Biketiger
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 172

Bikes: Track bike: 1978 Speedwell titanium Road bike: 2001 Independent Fabrication

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked 51 Times in 41 Posts
Help w/ newly installed BB + cups on track bike

I reach out to my friends looking for insight & hopefully calming assurance on a bottom bracket I just had installed.
I just purchased a NOS Cinelli Supercorsa pista frame hanging in a local shop. They agreed to install a bottom bracket for me which I provided: brand new Phil Wood 110.5 mm Campy with italian threaded stainless steel cups.
When I went to pick up the frame, they told me that they did not complete the job because it required two tools and they only had one. The bb was installed, the non-drive side cup was all the way in, but the drive side cup was just barely threaded on. They needed a second tool and would get one later in the week and finish the job. I said no problem, I could bring it to another shop which had both tools.
I took it just as described to my main mechanic at another shop who has both tools. He's an expert in track and old school stuff.
I picked it up yesterday. He said everything went great. NDS cup was all the way in, the DRIVESIDE cup had about 3mm of exposed thread.
He told me not to ride it for 24 hours to let the locktite take hold. I waited a full 24 hrs and took it for its inaugural ride today.
I had two flats which is highly unusual but nothing else. No skid stops, no pedaling backwards, just a normal 2 1/2 hr ride on the flats.
When I got home, while in the process of removing the 49T ring to swap it for a 48, I noticed, to my horror, that the driveside cup had worked its way almost all the way out.
The NDS side cup is now about 1 cm inside the bottom shell with the NDS crank arm almost touching the chainstay!
Naturally I am freaked out. This was just installed. New frame, new BB, new steel cups...I've never had a cup unthread before - and after one ride?!
Any help or insight is greatly appreciated. Shop won't re-open til Tuesday. I'm hoping to hear that this is still somehow going to be okay

Last edited by Biketiger; 01-23-22 at 11:00 PM.
Biketiger is offline  
Old 01-23-22, 07:52 PM
  #2  
Dylansbob 
2k miles from the midwest
 
Dylansbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Washington
Posts: 1,720

Bikes: ~'75 Colin Laing, '80s Schwinn SuperSport 650b, ex-Backroads ti project...

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 413 Post(s)
Liked 677 Times in 329 Posts
It's Italian, it happens with their threading.

You'll have to take it back and have them tighten it down again HARD!!!!
Dylansbob is offline  
Old 01-23-22, 07:58 PM
  #3  
Biketiger
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 172

Bikes: Track bike: 1978 Speedwell titanium Road bike: 2001 Independent Fabrication

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked 51 Times in 41 Posts
The mechanic who finished installing the BB used locktite but left about 3mm of exposed thread on the DRIVESIDE. I just examined the NDS cup and it is now threaded so far in that there is about a cm of BB shell exposed. The NDS cup got threaded in as the DS un-threaded.

Should he have used the Phil Wood provided stuff? I'm just hoping this is not an indication that the bottom shell is stripped or something terrible happened

Last edited by Biketiger; 02-03-22 at 01:25 PM.
Biketiger is offline  
Old 01-23-22, 09:01 PM
  #4  
rccardr 
aka: Dr. Cannondale
 
rccardr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 6,980

Bikes: Bob Jackson, Wizard, Pegoretti Duende, Merckx ProSLX, Pelizzoli, Cannondale ST, Schwinn Tempo, Davidson Sport Custom, Canyon Endurace, Richard Sachs, Davidson Discovery

Mentioned: 197 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1746 Post(s)
Liked 1,698 Times in 696 Posts
Not to freak.
I see grease but not Loctite.
Personally, I use a small schmear of Shoo Goo on my Italian threaded BB’s. Remains flexible so it grips well and never dries out. BB’s come out with not unreasonable effort.
All you’re trying to do is keep it from starting to back out from your pedaling action, not weld it in place.
__________________
Hard at work in the Secret Underground Laboratory...
rccardr is offline  
Likes For rccardr:
Old 01-23-22, 09:04 PM
  #5  
Biketiger
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 172

Bikes: Track bike: 1978 Speedwell titanium Road bike: 2001 Independent Fabrication

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked 51 Times in 41 Posts
One more detail...When the mechanic who completed the job installed the drive side cup, he left about 3mm of thread exposed. This obviously to dial in the best chainline. I have been researching this and some mechanics say that both cups need to be threaded ALL THE WAY IN. No exposed threads on either side. The spindle is the correct length for a track crankset, 110.5
Biketiger is offline  
Old 01-23-22, 09:09 PM
  #6  
Spaghetti Legs 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 4,543

Bikes: Numerous

Mentioned: 120 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1446 Post(s)
Liked 1,525 Times in 573 Posts
I agree, I don’t see any Loctite either. With an adjustable cup on both sides you have to crank it down really tight. Only potential damage from this would be if the NDS moved inboard enough to scrape or ding the chainstay.

If the chain line is correct and everything is tightened down all squared away fashion, IMO, exposed thread isn’t a big deal. I will add, though, one thing to consider if the frame is truly NOS, is if it was prepped by chasing the BB threads. I have an ‘89 Supercorsa road frame that I got NOS. I couldn’t even get a BB, cartridge or loose ball to thread all the way on until I got it chased. If the mechanic swears everything was truly super tight or if it happens again, I’d recommend getting the threads chased.

Edit - I’m having second thoughts now on the exposed threads, I read it mistakenly as NDS cup first time. I usually mount the drive side flush, but I don’t wrench on single speed/fixies much.
__________________
N = '96 Colnago C40, '04 Wilier Alpe D'Huez, '10 Colnago EPS, '85 Merckx Pro, '89 Merckx Century, '86 Tommasini Professional, '04 Teschner Aero FX Pro, '05 Alan Carbon Cross, '86 De Rosa Professional, '82 Colnago Super, '95 Gios Compact Pro, '95 Carrera Zeus, '84 Basso Gap, ‘89 Cinelli Supercorsa, ‘83 Bianchi Specialissima, ‘VO Randonneur, Ritchey Breakaway Steel, '84 Paletti Super Prestige, Heron Randonneur


Last edited by Spaghetti Legs; 01-23-22 at 09:21 PM.
Spaghetti Legs is offline  
Old 01-23-22, 09:34 PM
  #7  
Biketiger
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 172

Bikes: Track bike: 1978 Speedwell titanium Road bike: 2001 Independent Fabrication

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked 51 Times in 41 Posts
Thanks Mr. Legs! I looked at the DRIVE SIDE cups on three other track bikes that all have the same Phil Wood BB:
one is in all the way, one a mm of thread exposed and the third has maybe 2mm exposed. This one, that came undone had at least 3mm exposed when set up. I'll have the mechanic re-do it and chase the threads but what goop should he use: loctite again, the blue Phil Wood stuff or something else?

Thanks for everyone's help. I'm feeling better...
Biketiger is offline  
Old 01-23-22, 10:02 PM
  #8  
Biketiger
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 172

Bikes: Track bike: 1978 Speedwell titanium Road bike: 2001 Independent Fabrication

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked 51 Times in 41 Posts
I did not carefully examine the NON-driveside cup til now. It is threaded so far IN that there is about 1 cm of bottom shell threads exposed. So as the driveside un-threaded, the NDS got threaded further and further in exposing the shell threads.
Hope this is not too concerning either. I've never had this happen before and this is my 4th fixed gear with a Phil Wood BB.
I'll be sure to follow-up with what the mechanic does on Tuesday. When he clears me to ride it again, hopefully Wed, I will be riding that bike, hard, every day for 30 days and see if it stays TIGHT. It's my understanding that with Phil Wood BBs the correct chain line is achieved with the right spindle length and that the cups should be all the way or almost all the way in....

Last edited by Biketiger; 01-23-22 at 10:06 PM.
Biketiger is offline  
Old 01-23-22, 10:14 PM
  #9  
Russ Roth
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: South Shore of Long Island
Posts: 2,091

Bikes: 2010 Carrera Volans, 2015 C-Dale Trail 2sl, 2017 Raleigh Rush Hour, 2017 Blue Proseccio, 1992 Giant Perigee, 80s Gitane Rallye Tandem

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 790 Post(s)
Liked 636 Times in 480 Posts
Originally Posted by Biketiger View Post
I did not carefully examine the NON-driveside cup til now. It is threaded so far IN that there is about 1 cm of bottom shell threads exposed. So as the driveside un-threaded, the NDS got threaded further and further in exposing the shell threads.
Hope this is not too concerning either. I've never had this happen before and this is my 4th fixed gear with a Phil Wood BB.
I'll be sure to follow-up with what the mechanic does on Tuesday. When he clears me to ride it again, hopefully Wed, I will be riding that bike, hard, every day for 30 days and see if it stays TIGHT. It's my understanding that with Phil Wood BBs the correct chain line is achieved with the right spindle length and that the cups should be all the way or almost all the way in....
Something annoying with Phil and Italian BB, haven't had it happen with other brands, is that as you tighten in one side the other side can loosen. I'm sure it has to do with the nature of the cartridge and cup design. It was annoying to discover the first time I installed one that the other side was unthreading while trying to tighten the second side. The BB should be sized to the crank so in all likelihood the cups should be installed fairly evenly. Mine also popped out on my second ride but was a road bike so not quite the same forces as a track crank but close. I used red locktite, didn't go extreme though, just a good amount around the threads, let it nearly set, and then install. Didn't come loose for the next two years that I used the bike. Its annoying but make sure the second shop really has the second tool or they can't do it right either and just half-assed it.
Russ Roth is offline  
Old 01-23-22, 10:20 PM
  #10  
Biketiger
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 172

Bikes: Track bike: 1978 Speedwell titanium Road bike: 2001 Independent Fabrication

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked 51 Times in 41 Posts
Thanks Russ - that's really helpful. So no worries the NDS cup got screwed so far in?
He definitely has BOTH tools. It's just one of those weird situations where one mechanic started the job and a second finished it. I assume he re-did the whole job from the start but I don't know if he chased the threads or not. I think he'll want to now. I've just been worried that there is some damage. Threads are threads and it's steel to steel. I do have a brand new set of cups I'll bring him

Last edited by Biketiger; 01-23-22 at 10:48 PM.
Biketiger is offline  
Old 01-24-22, 06:05 PM
  #11  
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 23,506

Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.

Mentioned: 136 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2950 Post(s)
Liked 1,975 Times in 1,181 Posts
Originally Posted by Biketiger View Post
One more detail...When the mechanic who completed the job installed the drive side cup, he left about 3mm of thread exposed. This obviously to dial in the best chainline. I have been researching this and some mechanics say that both cups need to be threaded ALL THE WAY IN. No exposed threads on either side. The spindle is the correct length for a track crankset, 110.5
My experience with Phil cartridges is that the mounting rings should be threaded in until they seat against the cartridge, on both sides. Ideally, this would leave no exposed threads on the mounting rings and an ideal chainline. If you need to adjust the chainline, you loosen one ring and tighten the other to move the cartridge in the shell, keeping the rings seated against the cartridge.

N.B. when I used Phil mounting rings on my Viscount, the undersize 66mm wide shell meant that I had a couple millimeters of exposed thread on the rings on both sides. I put an Italian thread lockring on each mounting ring, just to give it a finished appearance, and the cartridge has never come loose, even though I didn't use thread lock compound on the rings.
JohnDThompson is offline  
Old 01-24-22, 06:16 PM
  #12  
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 23,506

Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.

Mentioned: 136 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2950 Post(s)
Liked 1,975 Times in 1,181 Posts
Originally Posted by Russ Roth View Post
Something annoying with Phil and Italian BB, haven't had it happen with other brands, is that as you tighten in one side the other side can loosen. I'm sure it has to do with the nature of the cartridge and cup design.
It's the nature of Italian and French thread bottom brackets. That's why Phil advises you to use two of their tools to install their cartridges on French and Italian thread shells; one tool holds the ring from rotating, while the other tool tightens the opposite ring. English and Swiss thread shells use a left-hand thread on the drive side, so they don't suffer from precessional loosening, and you can get away with only one tool to install the cartridge.
JohnDThompson is offline  
Old 02-03-22, 01:21 PM
  #13  
Biketiger
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 172

Bikes: Track bike: 1978 Speedwell titanium Road bike: 2001 Independent Fabrication

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked 51 Times in 41 Posts
Thanks John and Russ all who responded. This was really a conundrum for me - and just after my first ride!
Here is the update: I took the bike back to the shop and the same mechanic re-installed it. He said the threads were fine, everything felt smooth. He just used alcohol to clean everything again. This time he used more of the blue Loctite that comes with the Phil Wood cups. We let it sit for 3 days before riding. The photos below show what it looks like now.
As far as I can tell, it hasn't budged a bit. I'll keep my eye on it but I'm willing to bet that it's not going anywhere this time.
It amazes me that the same mechanic can do the same install with the same parts and have completely different results. He knows what he's doing.
Maybe waiting for 3 days really did the trick! Or it just needed more loctite


complete bike

BB installed
Biketiger is offline  
Old 02-03-22, 01:41 PM
  #14  
repechage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 17,429
Mentioned: 113 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2399 Post(s)
Liked 1,313 Times in 992 Posts
The revised install appears better.

Phil has changed the design of the bottom bracket cartridge over time.
I do not like the new ones.
The earlier version had the retaining rings engage directly to the outer half of the cartridge bearings.
The center sleeve caught the inside of those bearings.
The revised has a slightly smaller diameter bearing that fit inside a tube, (probably with internal counterbore(s))
I preferred the bigger bearings. The very early ones had other problems like a multi part spindle welded together from time to time.

Be sure to wear gloves for braking. Consider reaching your arm Under the bars to grab the tire.
Long ago when I was young and invincible I would ride my track bike 3 miles to work after school and hitch a ride to the track to train 2x per week.
There were roller hills along the way...
What you Mom does not know...

Last edited by repechage; 02-03-22 at 01:45 PM.
repechage is offline  
Old 02-03-22, 01:47 PM
  #15  
Biketiger
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 172

Bikes: Track bike: 1978 Speedwell titanium Road bike: 2001 Independent Fabrication

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked 51 Times in 41 Posts
Thanks for your reply and comments. It's interesting how designs change over time. Even on this thread, some have suggested that the cups need to be seated all the way. Phil Wood defends their design and says its perfectly acceptable to have exposed threads. I learned a lot. I knew there were different thread types (as in pitch/size) but did not know that the French and English wisely changed the DIRECTION. Now I know why.
I do not have pictures of how the bottom bracket was installed the first time but it looks identical to me - about 2-3 mm of exposed threads on the drive side. The NDS cup is flush with the rim of the bottom shell.
Biketiger is offline  
Old 02-03-22, 03:31 PM
  #16  
Biketiger
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 172

Bikes: Track bike: 1978 Speedwell titanium Road bike: 2001 Independent Fabrication

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked 51 Times in 41 Posts
Originally Posted by repechage View Post
The revised install appears better.


Be sure to wear gloves for braking. Consider reaching your arm Under the bars to grab the tire.
Long ago when I was young and invincible I would ride my track bike 3 miles to work after school and hitch a ride to the track to train 2x per week.
There were roller hills along the way...
What you Mom does not know...
Your comments made my day! It snowing here in Albuquerque so I can't anoint your words with a ride, but I dedicate tomorrow's ride to you! I'll be thinking about grabbing that wheel for sure I know I'll just get chided for this but I prefer my bikes without brakes.
Biketiger is offline  
Old 02-03-22, 04:36 PM
  #17  
TPL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 248
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 142 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 88 Times in 63 Posts
French bb does NOT have a left hand thread ....SWISS does ....and dimensionally is the same size as french

The phil bb can easily and properly be installed with a single tool

Blue or green loctite both allow for subsequent removal

Being that you now own a Cinelli ....spring for the simple Phil tool to install / remove this BB ....you do NOT need the overpriced shop tool with the built in handle ....get the 'small' tool, then use a 16 inch crescent wrench ....or a 1/2 inch drive socket ( I think 15/16 inch socket ) and a long and substantial 1/2 inch drive breaker bar

Tighten the rings so they are real tight ....Phil can give you torque values if you contact them, then you could use a 1/2" drive torque wrench ....torque wrench not required, however, if you have a penchant for ruining parts, you may want to consider a torque wrench

I've installed nearly a hundred Phil bb units ( british, italian and french )....never needed 2 tools ....EVER ....Phil propaganda will try to tell you otherwise ( they have tools they need to sell, gotta fund kids college, new car purchase, retirement accounts, vacations in paradise, etc )
TPL is offline  
Old 02-03-22, 04:47 PM
  #18  
Biketiger
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 172

Bikes: Track bike: 1978 Speedwell titanium Road bike: 2001 Independent Fabrication

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked 51 Times in 41 Posts
Wow that is really interesting. I have learned more here on Bike Forums than just about anywhere else about anything.
Bikes are my passion and even though I don't install bottom brackets myself, I really enjoy learning about the process.
This is my one and only Cinelli - found as a frame only, hanging from a hook at a local shop.
I collect track bikes from the 70's to this 2007 Cinelli. This Supercorsa is the nicest riding bike I own.
It feels so smooth and balanced. In one word, I'd describe the ride as sublime
I'll update in a few weeks after I put in a 1000 miles and post another pic of the threads.
Biketiger is offline  
Old 02-04-22, 08:07 AM
  #19  
mpetry912 
aged to perfection
 
mpetry912's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: PacNW
Posts: 583

Bikes: Dinucci Allez 2.0, Richard Sachs, Alex Singer, Serotta, Masi GC, Raleigh Pro Mk.1, Hetchins, etc

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 249 Post(s)
Liked 237 Times in 137 Posts
Here's a twist on Phil cartridge installation:

first make sure the threads in the BB are clean, use a toothbrush and maybe some alchohol to clean any oil off the threads, so the Locktite will adhere.

Then - especially on the italian thread BB, you want to tighten the two rings against each other to a torque of "about" 25 ft - lb. Maybe a little more.

then - before install of the crankarms - take a block of wood, lay it against the end of the axle - and give it a good whack with a hammer, on each end. Then re-torque.

/markp
mpetry912 is offline  
Old 02-04-22, 09:48 AM
  #20  
shoota 
Senior Member
 
shoota's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Stillwater, OK
Posts: 7,797
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1711 Post(s)
Liked 500 Times in 346 Posts
What an absolute beauty. What year is that from?
__________________
2014 Cannondale SuperSix EVO 2
2019 Salsa Warbird
shoota is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.